waywo What Are You Working On?

[SaltyKoalaBear 1,813]

27 minutes ago, no god anywhere said:

@MultiLockOn

 

"...because you somehow feel like you see a path and deserve to traverse it."

 

I wont debate a strawman. Ive been around, you should know better than this. I stated my POV based in reason, not of the emotion it makes me feel.

 

"Saying it doesn't add anything to the game is pretty disingenuous."

 

If my wife stopped opening her legs except when i did chores, it wouldnt add anything to my marriage. Designing a map with minimal pathways and then making a gimmick out of accessing more otherwise isnt adding anything to the game. Not only through readdition of more pathways being accessible to the key holder, the gameplay it creates(more achievable in a standard map) doesnt even make up for the simplified pathing for the majority of players without the key.  Its still a net loss.

 

"If you like the "classic" nature of Halo's weapons and powerups (and I've used quotations for a reason, it should read "bullshit") then no, you won't like the key"

 

Shocker. You dont like halo so therefore a game that plays like halo would be "patently worse experience in every way and I mean that." No, anything that doesnt play like halo on halo would be patently worse and i mean that. I dont need to add power weapons behind doors(on literally any disc map) so you can play it to know it would be better than your route. It would be the standard halo experience with an added layer of depth without good level design as an expense. Besides, the proof is still your own burden. Your method of key design hasnt shown anything needing to be disproved.

 

"I wanted something that was inherent to the map because tying it to a gametype implies that the map could be played without the gametype and key attached.  And to be totally honest, that's just not possible.  You will never come up with a good key design that can just as easily be subtracted from the map and still 'works', it can't be done because then it's not designed around the key.  And it needs to be built around it. It's not just difficult, it's literally not possible. "

 

Good paragraph. This is why it wont work, assuming we have the same idea of what "a good key design" implies and under halo circumstances. Its an inherent flaw. Besides, you could achieve the same level and more of desired gameplay and enjoyment from just loading up a disc map without a key to go fetch. When you think about it, you managed to create a devolution of level design by tying the key into the map.  Great work.

 

 

 

❤️ you multi.

I feel like I disagree with almost all of this haha I hope your trolling no god....

 

The key most certainly adds a layer of tactical depth, not every maps needs to have paths leading everywhere.  If it's not a product for you, so be it... This all just seems very opinionated and not based in objective truths. 

 

 

[no god anywhere 735]

15 minutes ago, SaltyKoalaBear said:

I feel like I disagree with almost all of this haha I hope your trolling no god....

 

The key most certainly adds a layer of tactical depth, not every maps needs to have paths leading everywhere.  If it's not a product for you, so be it... This all just seems very opinionated and not based in objective truths. 

 

 

Feel free to elaborate. Im open minded. What objective truths, what tactical gameplay etc?

Edited August 11, 2020 by no god anywhere

[icyhot 2,822]

1 hour ago, no god anywhere said:

If my wife stopped opening her legs except when i did chores, it wouldnt add anything to my marriage.

 

But if you buy her chocolates and wine and a ticket to a musical... ?

[no god anywhere 735]

16 minutes ago, icyhotspartin said:

 

But if you buy her chocolates and wine and a ticket to a musical... ?

She works at a candy factory, doesnt drink, and theres no babysitter. Id probably still be at home arguing about a key map in a 5 year old game i dont even play anymore.

Edited August 11, 2020 by no god anywhere

[Xzamplez 335]

Each person’s take on the concept seems to be based on perception:

 

You either believe the key adds to an experience that is enjoyable even without the key

 

or

 

You believe the experience is less enjoyable without the key as a result of the limitations necessary to make the key impactful.

[purely fat 1,274]

Now here are my two cents on keys in general. If the plan is to make a key map from the start you should divide your map into necessary and unnecessary routes but these unnecessary routes need to function like a short cut in a racetrack in the sense that it should give the player who took it an advantage but the player who didn't take it can still race normally and can still outrace them if they make good turns or have good item usage (mario kart). But if you make it too difficult for the players who didn't take the shortcut by having the actual track be more difficult than the shortcut then you have problems.

 

I don't think Arcanum does this though as I think that the general issue with the map comes from an exaggeration of what I call Halo 5ism design where the map enforces speed bumps to stop players from Halo 5ing everywhere which isn't terrible but the degree to which it is done combined with the key can be frustrating to people as they find it taxing to either always have an item to traverse the map or always having to do some sort of input to move vertically on the map. Now you are probably thinking "doesn't it have the issue you stated earlier then?" No because it is equally as difficult to traverse the key doors from an input perspective as most of them require a player to jump into them on at least one side. This is just a product of how Multi designs Halo 5 maps however and I think people are mistaking it as an issue with the key and not micro geometry and weapon preferences.

 

The thing is this general style of speed bumping players moving vertically is present in all of Multi's designs in Halo 5, so if that style is not your cup of tea then you are definitely not going to like it when combined with a mechanic that opens and closes routes. Do I think with a couple of micro changes that made it a little bit easier to move vertically on the map that most of you would like arcanum? Yes I do.

 

And you don't probably notice speed bumping on multi's other maps as much because they are less linear in general as maps and you aren't necessarily forced to take a set route as often. 

 

Also, we have to remember that as designers we all have preferences and we need to understand that no matter how much we value our own preferences they are only right within the bubble they exist in with proper context and if we want to actually get better as designers we need to expose ourselves to different bubbles no matter how much it slaps your personal design ideals in the face. We can't let our pride control us. Use what you hate to make you better at what you make. You don't learn how to deal with something by fighting it but by embracing it. Because embracing something will get you closer to it and give you understanding beyond the reasons you had for fighting it. This way if you still want to fight it, you will know every nook and cranny of that asshole whose ass you want to kick.

 

FYI this isn't meant for just Multi but everyone. We can all do better to understand someones thought process and beliefs as a designer before pushing our preference for maps onto others. I feel like a lot of us go onto maps with the goal of putting are little touch on their maps without asking or trying to understand the reasoning for the way it is first.

 

Also, downvoting is for cowards. (GIVE ME THEM FAT DOWNVOTES BABY)

 

PS ❤️

 

 

 

 

 

[Soldat Du Christ 3,223]

1 week 

 

[purely fat 1,274]

@Soldat Du Christ I will never counter upvote you again. lol

[MultiLockOn 1,251]

1 hour ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

1 week 

 

Honestly, looks really really awesome.

[no god anywhere 735]

https://mobile.twitter.com/Halo/status/1293261002037841920?s=19

 

Infinite delayed till 2021. Let's gooooooo.

Edited August 11, 2020 by no god anywhere

[Kantalope 727]

Maybe we'll get playable Craig ?

[icyhot 2,822]

13 hours ago, Xzamplez said:

Each person’s take on the concept seems to be based on perception:

 

You either believe the key adds to an experience that is enjoyable even without the key

 

or

 

You believe the experience is less enjoyable without the key as a result of the limitations necessary to make the key impactful.

 

All takes must be based on perception. I think you mean to say 'premises', where the default premises for both those takes are 'the key is an interchangeable powerup like the OS'.

 

My premises are different. The Key is the experience, that's why it's important to know why you're grabbing it and how you're going to use it (or not). It's a whole other ballgame that is unfortunately based on H5's mechanics and sandbox.

 

Therefore, my take on Arcanum is that there is no map without the key, and there is no key without that map. The two are integrated, in terms of geometry and mechanics. The sum is greater than the parts. The function and form inform and dictate each other. It's well-built.

 

@Soldat Du Christ I thought I was the 'purple map guy', looks cool ?

 

Re. delay, @Westin did you get Tyler to delete Infinite? Because I wasn't joking earlier  

[FatkidForger 280]

49 minutes ago, no god anywhere said:

https://mobile.twitter.com/Halo/status/1293261002037841920?s=19

 

Infinite delayed till 2021. Let's gooooooo.

 

Ofc they blame it on covid though.

Would rather they delay to improve than release a half baked mess that kills off the community and overall playercount within the first few months. Though, its no safe bet its gonna be gud whenever they release it.

[S0UL FLAME 1,611]

A multiplayer beta should be released to us in the fall, with a thirty day window. No excuse for it not to.

[Xzamplez 335]

1 hour ago, icyhotspartin said:

 

All takes must be based on perception. I think you mean to say 'premises', where the default premises for both those takes are 'the key is an interchangeable powerup like the OS'.

 

My premises are different. The Key is the experience, that's why it's important to know why you're grabbing it and how you're going to use it (or not). It's a whole other ballgame that is unfortunately based on H5's mechanics and sandbox.

 

Therefore, my take on Arcanum is that there is no map without the key, and there is no key without that map. The two are integrated, in terms of geometry and mechanics. The sum is greater than the parts. The function and form inform and dictate each other. It's well-built.

 

@Soldat Du Christ I thought I was the 'purple map guy', looks cool ?

 

Re. delay, @Westin did you get Tyler to delete Infinite? Because I wasn't joking earlier  

I meant perception. Salty was saying that NGA’s take wasn’t based on objective truths. Your opinion of whether the key adds or detracts from the experience depends on your perception of the concept.

[icyhot 2,822]

3 minutes ago, Xzamplez said:

I meant perception. Salty was saying that NGA’s take wasn’t based on objective truths. Your opinion of whether the key adds or detracts from the experience depends on your perception of the concept.

 

I get that. This is my thought process :

 

The perception is processed according to one's held premises. If the operating premise is wrong, then the take that comes from the perception and experience of the thing (concept or object) will be wrong.

 

My point is that the premise underlying both of the takes you provided does not allow for the proper processing of the perception, of the experience of the key. You might be right that those takes are based on perception only, because to me they are not processed with the full context of what the key does.

[SaltyKoalaBear 1,813]

7 minutes ago, Xzamplez said:

I meant perception. Salty was saying that NGA’s take wasn’t based on objective truths. Your opinion of whether the key adds or detracts from the experience depends on your perception of the concept.

Correct. Too say you don't value or enjoy the tactical layer that the key mechanic provides on arcanum is one thing, but to say it doesn't exist is just flat out objectively wrong. 

[SaltyKoalaBear 1,813]

On 8/10/2020 at 1:58 PM, MultiLockOn said:

@SaltyKoalaBear

 

 

 

[no god anywhere 735]

58 minutes ago, SaltyKoalaBear said:

Correct. Too say you don't value or enjoy the tactical layer that the key mechanic provides on arcanum is one thing, but to say it doesn't exist is just flat out objectively wrong. 

I assume this is referring to me, except i never said that. I said it doesnt add anything, not that it doesnt exist. It doesnt add anything as in could i be making any decision holding the key that i couldnt make if the key mechanic didnt exist? Though i will point out that there are decisions i cant make if im not holding the key, that i could make if the key mechanic didnt exist. If removing opportunity, and having to choose a different option because less are available to me is "adding tactical depth" then thats objectively wrong.

 

The key mechanic is not really my gripe, its the level design the key mechanic requires to function and how its a pointless tradeoff. Unless you prefer to be forced into a more linear gameplay, which is objectively less complex than having all options available to all players at all times.

 

Again, im open minded and you can clarify for me where my thought process may be wrong but this would be the second time i asked. If you responded to me the first time we could have skipped your "so what youre saying is...." post.

Edited August 11, 2020 by no god anywhere

[JB_ 3,522]

Jokes on you guys the delay won't do anything except just that... Delayed launch of an incomplete game.

 

Let's be honest. With 5 years down the drain and nothing to show for it, they're clearly delaying it to get the game playable (performance/crashes) they're not delaying it for quality/polish.

 

 

 

 

i'd love to be wrong but.... LOL 

 

 

 

HOLY SHIT I JUST RELIZED WHAT IS XBOX SERIES X GOING TO LAUNCH WITH?

 

 AHAHAH 343 YOU FUCKED MICROSOFT OVER. 343 IS GETTING AXED.

 

THAT STUDIO IS GETTING SHUT DOWN IN A YEAR OR 2. CALLING IT NOW

 

stepped on the wrong toes now

 

 

like literally Micosoft just lost their money. That's software and hardware sales pretty much down the drain until a good game release for it. HA f you 343

Edited August 11, 2020 by JB_

[S0UL FLAME 1,611]

 

[SaltyKoalaBear 1,813]

1 hour ago, no god anywhere said:

I assume this is referring to me, except i never said that. I said it doesnt add anything, not that it doesnt exist. It doesnt add anything as in could i be making any decision holding the key that i couldnt make if the key mechanic didnt exist? Though i will point out that there are decisions i cant make if im not holding the key, that i could make if the key mechanic didnt exist. If removing opportunity, and having to choose a different option because less are available to me is "adding tactical depth" then thats objectively wrong.

 

The key mechanic is not really my gripe, its the level design the key mechanic requires to function and how its a pointless tradeoff. Unless you prefer to be forced into a more linear gameplay, which is objectively less complex than having all options available to all players at all times.

 

Again, im open minded and you can clarify for me where my thought process may be wrong but this would be the second time i asked. If you responded to me the first time we could have skipped your "so what youre saying is...." post.

I've just been busy, been traveling past few days. I promise I'll give you a detailed response when I have the time to give it. Don't want to short change the response if that's understandable. 

[Zanieon 37]

Stuff i made during past week and this one:

 

[FatkidForger 280]

8 hours ago, JB_ said:

they're clearly delaying it to get the game playable (performance/crashes) they're not delaying it for quality/polish.

Yeah, that was my point.

[Westin 2,169]

21 hours ago, icyhotspartin said:

 

All takes must be based on perception. I think you mean to say 'premises', where the default premises for both those takes are 'the key is an interchangeable powerup like the OS'.

 

My premises are different. The Key is the experience, that's why it's important to know why you're grabbing it and how you're going to use it (or not). It's a whole other ballgame that is unfortunately based on H5's mechanics and sandbox.

 

Therefore, my take on Arcanum is that there is no map without the key, and there is no key without that map. The two are integrated, in terms of geometry and mechanics. The sum is greater than the parts. The function and form inform and dictate each other. It's well-built.

 

@Soldat Du Christ I thought I was the 'purple map guy', looks cool ?

 

Re. delay, @Westin did you get Tyler to delete Infinite? Because I wasn't joking earlier  

where did you think the delay came from? they're trying to figure out where it went