waywo What Are You Working On?

[icyhot 2,822]

Soul, an old friend of mine is likely going to be ordained as a minster soon, would you like me to introduce you? I'm sure you two could have a lot of interesting discussions re. scripture

[Soldat Du Christ 3,223]

Successfully exercising your thumb skills in a fps game is about as impressive as someone being good at beer pong, or flip cup. A novelty party trick.

 

Get wrecked nerds, video games should reward mental skill overwhelmingly 

 

all thumb motor skills should be present only enough to engage the player and immerse them in a first person pov, and you don't need high aiming difficulty to achieve those two goals. Make the projectile thicc af and remove aim assist and magnetism which just feels bad and is a dishonest mechanic

 

When fps vr games utilise larger muscle groups to a more elaborate degree then we can start taking motor skills seriously in games, and stop pretending thumb skills are valuable

 

 

[S0UL FLAME 1,611]

11 hours ago, icyhotspartin said:

Soul, an old friend of mine is likely going to be ordained as a minster soon, would you like me to introduce you?

Entirely up to you, though I want to clarify that my spare time is going to be slimmer. Still looking for work in this crazy world and all. Certainly hope he is adept in the Word; there's far too many pastors and ministers out there that twist the scriptures to their own destruction, like Peter warned. Here's to hoping he seeks God with all his heart.

[Box_Hoes 1,357]

That’s a bold claim soldat 

[S0UL FLAME 1,611]

6 hours ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

Get wrecked nerds, video games should reward mental skill overwhelmingly 

So, Starcraft, Warhammer, League, Counter Strike?

 

You leave out a good chunk of fantastic games, both single player and multiplayer, when you make a statement like that, along with solely focusing on FPS. 

[Soldat Du Christ 3,223]

1 hour ago, S0UL FLAME said:

So, Starcraft, Warhammer, League, Counter Strike?

 

You leave out a good chunk of fantastic games, both single player and multiplayer, when you make a statement like that, along with solely focusing on 

I'm not leaving anything out, any game can do this, they just need to have their settings adjusted so aiming is not a primary skill, it should take a back seat, developers need to find out how to supplement this loss by introducing more depth in every other category

[purely fat 1,274]

Just now, Soldat Du Christ said:

I'm not leaving anything out, any game can do this, they just need to have their settings adjusted so aiming is not a primary skill, it should take a back seat, developers need to find out how to supplement this loss by introducing more depth in every other category

Just don't make aim gods. Shit is boring.

[MultiLockOn 1,251]

10 hours ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

Successfully exercising your thumb skills in a fps game is about as impressive as someone being good at beer pong, or flip cup. A novelty party trick.

 

Get wrecked nerds, video games should reward mental skill overwhelmingly 

 

all thumb motor skills should be present only enough to engage the player and immerse them in a first person pov, and you don't need high aiming difficulty to achieve those two goals. Make the projectile thicc af and remove aim assist and magnetism which just feels bad and is a dishonest mechanic

 

When fps vr games utilise larger muscle groups to a more elaborate degree then we can start taking motor skills seriously in games, and stop pretending thumb skills are valuable

 

 

I just don't think this is true. Skill is the one factor that can allow you to not hard cap the skill ceiling, which inevitably every mental game reaches.  You give the best chess player in the world a losing board with a king and a pawn, it doesn't matter how smart they are - they will never win.  Skill can overcome that differential.  Also a lot of mental skill comes down to making conjectures on whether or not the opponent is skilled enough to do something, which I think is inherently less random than trying to think 15 moves ahead as to whether or not the enemy will make any number of given choices down a T-chart.

[Box_Hoes 1,357]

Soldat do you feel that way about games that feel good to aim in (opposite of halo 5) but with a projectile system done right. More brain power to know where to aim relative to where the enemy is, opposed to requiring a set of thumbs from the gods to combat tedious aiming systems 

[purely fat 1,274]

Lets just say there is reason people end up coaches rather than players and this includes esports.

 

Fuck it, look at aim gods. The game is all about stringing a bunch of abilities together while still forcing the player to hit the majority of their shots. Even if your ability usage is perfect your skill cap is still going to be lower than someone with good aim because all they have to do is copy how you played while hitting more shots. It doesn't matter how much better of an understanding you have of how to play the abilities because the talented can mimic you without needing to know the ins and outs of the strat. They just need the strat in it's most basic form.

[icyhot 2,822]

Strategic mimicry is a fundamentally derivative method, though. If you're constantly copying your opponent's strat, they have the opportunity to make the first move to either 1/ change strat or 2/ come up with a completely new one, if they can, neither of which will be necessarily mental or physical alone.

 

The central question here is the same one that soldat brought up last year about how input is not ascended like pure mental play. People argue about this in fighting games more than they do in FPS, usually. You could make the same arguments w/re. to a game like golf - but then you'd realize that without the capacity to actually implement your ascended thoughts through action into the world, you can't win, let alone actually interface with the system. Mental ascendance in games just doesn't apply to FPS the same way it will apply to T-BS or RPG games, where you can come up with a complete strategy before you even hop in and then just play it out like a slot machine. And even then, you gotta press a button or two.

 

It's a false dichotomy, because both play into each other in real-time and turn-based games. I guess you've played one too many games of CS:GO recently, eh @Soldat Du Christ? 

[Soldat Du Christ 3,223]

@MultiLockOn

Ok but we are talking about thumbs here... think about it, assume you have a game where every possible intellect category a player can exercise is present, leaving the only deciding factor to motor skills, which is FINE, but the only motor skill that is being exercised is THUMB skills, the most underwhelming possible differential, should that determine the outcome of a match? 

 

I'd rather just have the players continue to go neck and neck until one of them gives in just 1% eventually losing them the match. If we where exercising larger muscle groups, i think it would be a valuable skill, but not thumbs

 

 

@Box_Hoes

I still feel this way even in games where i'm competent, or even good at aiming, while i admit it feels satisfying, i understand what i'm doing is no more impressive than throwing something in the trash from across the room several times in a row. And yes some games do this better than others, playing halo 5 makes it mote frustrating yes, some characters in overwatch have projectiles so thick it feels much more fair and natural, you dont need dishonest mechanics like aim assist or magnetism

 

@purely fat

I think you hit the nail on the head with your first sentence, all the young nerds with thumbs from the devil get to compete while the wise teachers are stuck trying to tell them to stop making bad decisions only to watch them get away with bad decisions by leaning on their thumbs skills

 

@icyhotspartin

Having a interface present is different than letting those inputs have a meaningful impact on the outcome of a match, like i said i think all the virtues of placing your shots intentionally or just the engagement that looking around in real time is readeamable, but just needs to be toned down by alot in games

[JB_ 3,522]

reminds me of this

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[purely fat 1,274]

There is a reason that counter strats or new metas take so long to bear any fruits of success and it is execution. In almost every sport and esport the best strategies are typically the simplest ones to execute and even if a strategy is theoretically the perfect counter to the meta it is limited by 

 

a) the team already being worse at executing the meta, so their general execution no matter the strat is less than.

b) in situations where a duel of some sort is forced they have a mechanical disadvantage so no counter strat can come into play.

c) tempo, generally the best teams in any sport are the best at controlling tempo, so as long as they own this it can make it difficult for the counter strat to be effective or even be used.

 

I don't hate on mimicry because if it was truly a lesser way of stratting it wouldn't be so heavily used. There is rarely a case where a team that develops a style of play ends up being the best at it. It is usually a more mechanically sound team that becomes the best at it. There are a few cases but those teams are typically mechanically great. For example: Astralis at their peak in CS, Bulls in basketball (iso era), the Red Wings in hockey during the 90's and 00's, etc.

 

But I do think it gets beat out the majority of the time by teams playing to their personnel's strengths. It is one of the reasons I like basketball so much because it is one of the few sports where almost every coach understands this and every team plays slightly different due to personnel. I find it funny it doesn't catch on in esports like Overwatch considering almost every contenders season a team of one tricks makes it out of the open bracket. Funnily enough the first time it happened it was during the goats meta and every EU team was forced to come up with a different comp just to deal with this team of one tricks dominating against goats while not really running a true counter to it. Teams counter stratted them and found success but what's funny is that most of these teams ended up playing to their strengths via counter stratting as most dps players struggled with goats and the counter to this weird bunker comp involved playing actual dps heroes. 

 

So while mimicry is super effective it is only because they tend to be mimicking a strategy that plays to their strengths. Which makes sense because in any competitive scene coaches/scouts tend to look for similar skill sets which enables mimicry as a viable method of strategy. They want players that fit a set checklist. Mimicry would probably be less effective and the simplest strat to play would be less obvious. Simpler strats give players more freedom so they can execute more easily and the simplest strat is to play to your strengths.

 

It is why I tell box to not make less calls when we play because I just want him hitting shots because I can't. lol

 

ugh too many words

typo's everywhere and too much time spent.

 

[icyhot 2,822]

17 hours ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

@MultiLockOn

Ok but we are talking about thumbs here... think about it, assume you have a game where every possible intellect category a player can exercise is present, leaving the only deciding factor to motor skills, which is FINE, but the only motor skill that is being exercised is THUMB skills, the most underwhelming possible differential, should that determine the outcome of a match? 

 

I'd rather just have the players continue to go neck and neck until one of them gives in just 1% eventually losing them the match. If we where exercising larger muscle groups, i think it would be a valuable skill, but not thumbs

 

 

@Box_Hoes

I still feel this way even in games where i'm competent, or even good at aiming, while i admit it feels satisfying, i understand what i'm doing is no more impressive than throwing something in the trash from across the room several times in a row. And yes some games do this better than others, playing halo 5 makes it mote frustrating yes, some characters in overwatch have projectiles so thick it feels much more fair and natural, you dont need dishonest mechanics like aim assist or magnetism

 

@purely fat

I think you hit the nail on the head with your first sentence, all the young nerds with thumbs from the devil get to compete while the wise teachers are stuck trying to tell them to stop making bad decisions only to watch them get away with bad decisions by leaning on their thumbs skills

 

@icyhotspartin

Having a interface present is different than letting those inputs have a meaningful impact on the outcome of a match, like i said i think all the virtues of placing your shots intentionally or just the engagement that looking around in real time is readeamable, but just needs to be toned down by alot in games

 

I mean, these are video games. Of course it's gonna be thumbs (and fingers). Of course there's an interface present, its a VIDEO GAME. - and therefore, of COURSE those inputs are going to have a meaningful outcome on the game.

 

Let's say, to make you happy, that we take on SIM Racing - this involves not only the thumbs and fingers, but the entire body: feet and legs, hands and arms, torso, head and neck, eyes, wrists... just check out the pro F1 and Rally drivers who post videos of themselves in SIM rigs. Is that more to your liking, re. full-body input skill? Let's say, then, that a developer comes up with a game that requires you to input for walking by actually walking, and any and all other actions are linked to your body and appendages' position in real-time - a full VR immersion game.

 

Can't you still end up in a situation where one player's input skill is all that will allow them to win?  Like, say, a guy who is relatively fit will be able to duck just in time vs a guy who isn't quite so fit and who can't dodge that rocket? Or in the case of the SIMRacer, say the fit guy doesn't know the car he's driving very well and the fat guy does, and the fat guy ends up winning the race because he's capable of downshifting at the right part of the final turn?

 

Your focus isn't on the fundamental issue, which is designing gameplay and spaces for that gameplay which require a unity of thought and action. Yeah, there's no question that games in the 'middle market' are focused heavily on twitch responses, but this has been the case for more than a decade now. And as to fighting games, you gotta remember that in the better ones there is a lot of strategy that goes into choosing how a fighter is going to approach a particular input sequence, and a lot of that depends on the real-time processing of what the opponent is doing, or liable to do. Same goes for more cerebral shooters.

 

Git gud!

[Soldat Du Christ 3,223]

1 hour ago, icyhotspartin said:

 

I mean, these are video games. Of course it's gonna be thumbs (and fingers). Of course there's an interface present, its a VIDEO GAME. - and therefore, of COURSE those inputs are going to have a meaningful outcome on the game.

 

Let's say, to make you happy, that we take on SIM Racing - this involves not only the thumbs and fingers, but the entire body: feet and legs, hands and arms, torso, head and neck, eyes, wrists... just check out the pro F1 and Rally drivers who post videos of themselves in SIM rigs. Is that more to your liking, re. full-body input skill? Let's say, then, that a developer comes up with a game that requires you to input for walking by actually walking, and any and all other actions are linked to your body and appendages' position in real-time - a full VR immersion game.

 

Can't you still end up in a situation where one player's input skill is all that will allow them to win?  Like, say, a guy who is relatively fit will be able to duck just in time vs a guy who isn't quite so fit and who can't dodge that rocket? Or in the case of the SIMRacer, say the fit guy doesn't know the car he's driving very well and the fat guy does, and the fat guy ends up winning the race because he's capable of downshifting at the right part of the final turn?

 

Your focus isn't on the fundamental issue, which is designing gameplay and spaces for that gameplay which require a unity of thought and action. Yeah, there's no question that games in the 'middle market' are focused heavily on twitch responses, but this has been the case for more than a decade now. And as to fighting games, you gotta remember that in the better ones there is a lot of strategy that goes into choosing how a fighter is going to approach a particular input sequence, and a lot of that depends on the real-time processing of what the opponent is doing, or liable to do. Same goes for more cerebral shooters.

 

Git gud!

It does not follow that because games feature finger inputs, they therefore have a meaningful impact on the outcome of a match. Whether or not inputs have a meaningful outcome depends on how much is demanded and how much is rewarded

 

And i'm fine with video games being completely separate from physical sports, even though they could theoretically be merged as VR becomes more developed, but most importantly whatever skills are present they need to be rewarded proportionate to their value

 

i'm sorry if it makes you upset but thumb skills are not more valuable than mental skills, the problem is they are treated as if they are more valuable by how disproportionately rewarding it is

 

I think one reason why people flinch at the idea of nerfing aiming skill is that it would sacrifice engagement, BUT this is only if you don't have a creative mind and can't think of other ways to add engagement back in through other means

 

In Overwatch there a character named winston who has a auto lock on weapon, so how did the developers make up for this loss of engagement? 

The gun can lock on to as many as three targets at once without sacrificing any more ammunition or damage per second, so the player is rewarded ALOT by optimising their position and encouraging a crowd control role.

 

This is just one example, you don't have to give everyone auto tracking weapons, just find creative ways of making gunfight more mental!

 

 

[icyhot 2,822]

1 hour ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

 Whether or not inputs have a meaningful outcome depends on how much is demanded and how much is rewarded

 

agreed

 

1 hour ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

but most importantly whatever skills are present they need to be rewarded proportionate to their value

 

agreed - thumbs are very important in console shooters, ergo thumb skill should be rewarded

 

1 hour ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

i'm sorry if it makes you upset but thumb skills are not more valuable than mental skills, the problem is they are treated as if they are more valuable by how disproportionately rewarding it is

 

huh?! me? upset that I apparently believe thumbs are more important than mental skills? the guy who goes 6-15 in customs because I have no thumbs and don't care to learn H5 advanced rebound jumps? who never once said that thumbs are more ascended than mental game always and forever? ok...

 

Seriously though, I never said thumbs were more important. I said that thumbs and brain skills should be integrated. If you're all thumbs in  a game that demands even a dash of quick strategic thinking, you're not going to get very far - same vice-versa re. brain over thumbs. It's up to the player to figure that out, and the designer to make a game that actually gives a player that opportunity. Frankly, that's one of the things I don't like about chess, because it gets to a point where you have two guys who have literally memorized 1000's of fractal strats and instead of being engaged in an original and interesting match they are just replaying the simulations over and over and over. But that also has to do with the fact that chess has a 1000+ year history, so the barrier to entry is pretty high - see 2's on Guardian for the same sort of effect/

 

1 hour ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

I think one reason why people flinch at the idea of nerfing aiming skill is that it would sacrifice engagement, BUT this is only if you don't have a creative mind and can't think of other ways to add engagement back in through other means

 

I mean... it depends on the weapon sandbox, no? Lock-on weapons are fine and all, but you have to make them in a way that compliments the rest of the weapons and the player mechanics. Hydra is dog because it has to move so fast for long-range and those are typically littered with bullshit cover, but it's also super dog at short ranges because of the timetofire and the unlocked spread. I'm a fan of the H2 rockets because lock-on was added for vehicles only - missile pod in H3 could have been implemented better, but it was an interesting idea. But even those two, and I think Winston as well, require the player to tag their targets with the reticule - that requires both right thumb - aim - AND LEFT THUMB - POSITION. Whoa! 

 

Wait, you mean... positioning in console shooters is tied to a thumbstick as well???!! And if I can't position myself properly with the left thumbstick then it doesn't matter a shit-damn if I can land the shots? Huh... how'bout that.

 

If you're talking a VR detective game where there isn't any combat and it's all about where you go and who you interview, then sure, yeah, that's definitely not going to prioritize something like aiming. But I mean... in a game that features gunfighting? Aiming isn't going anywhere.

 

1 hour ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

It does not follow that because games feature finger inputs, they therefore have a meaningful impact on the outcome of a match. 

 

Yes it does... if it is a real-time console shooter, racer, party game, timed-input RPG, platformer with the finger inputs as the primary interface with the gameplay, as is currently the standard and most likely to continue to be the standard until video games are moved to the VR-bodyscan realm.... because to have any outcome, you have to press the buttons. Cause and effect. Closed system. 

 

Now, I agree that just because a game features finger inputs [somewhere] it does not follow that those finger inputs have a direct and meaningful effect on the gameplay - see SIMRacing. There are no finger inputs in the actual gameplay if you have a wheel, pedals, and a shifter set up and mapped to the inputs.

 

Semi-related rant, mouse and keys are the worst input option. Least ergonomic input and very close to arbitrarily laid out because of the nature of a computer keyboard. Custom controller + mouse/flightstick might be the best option, I welcome any opinions on this.

 

[MultiLockOn 1,251]

Soldat I'm curious on how you differentiate gaming from actual sports since you don't value mechanical skill in games.  Where is the cutoff here? I'm assuming you're fine with sports like soccer taking much physical fitness and mechanical skill in conjunction to mental skill.  What about golf? Bowling? Ping Pong? Where is the cutoff here for when mechanical skill no longer has merit to you.  It seems like you're attributing the fact that it's just your thumbs it shouldn't matter as much as it does.  

[MultiLockOn 1,251]

I enjoy discussing things with you btw soldat @Soldat Du Christ both here and over voice. Just felt like that should be said. 

[JB_ 3,522]

 

 

This game is the definition of next level design

 

• You can walk up walls and even go upside down on these paths
• You can shift the orientation of the level, by shooting switches
• Portals
• Non euclid designed areas sort of like the examples in this video: 
   
• Spirit mode where there's alternate paths that can only be accessed via this "spirit mode"

 

Combine all of this and wow the levels were crazy.  Annnd it's on google for free cause it's abandonware =( 

Edited January 15, 2021 by JB_

[Soldat Du Christ 3,223]

10 hours ago, MultiLockOn said:

Soldat I'm curious on how you differentiate gaming from actual sports since you don't value mechanical skill in games.  Where is the cutoff here? I'm assuming you're fine with sports like soccer taking much physical fitness and mechanical skill in conjunction to mental skill.  What about golf? Bowling? Ping Pong? Where is the cutoff here for when mechanical skill no longer has merit to you.  It seems like you're attributing the fact that it's just your thumbs it shouldn't matter as much as it does.  

It all depends on context, thumb war for example exercises thumb skills, but i don't have a problem with that game because there is very little if any mental skill that can be exercised to gain an advantage, it's all about proportions... it's not necessarily that thumb skills are always bad to be rewarded, but that it should never overwhelm an entire category of skill, namely Mental

 

I'm trying to approach everything from a bottom up point of view, not top down. If you just examine video games intuitively without breaking down all the a priori assumptions i believe most people will come to the intuitive understanding that thumb skills are fine because it requires practice and precition, but if you break skills down into their overarching categories: Mental and Motor, you will see how completely disproportionately rewarding the two categories are

 

Most games exercise these mental skills even to a minimal degree, some more than others:

 

Processing capacity ( how MUCH information you can gather and compartmentalize in order to think laterally and several steps ahead

 

Processing speed (how fast you can gather and process information that leads to decisions)

 

Processing extrapolation (reasoning off incomplete data, induction & deduction)

 

And then heres the motor skills exercised in games...

 

...Thumbs ?

 

See what i mean? 

[purely fat 1,274]

I wouldn't call it just thumbs. It is hand eye coordination which in general is one of the most important motor skills we have. Are ability to do most things we do that make us human stems from this, partially because we have opposable thumbs. And anybody who has ever played baseball, golf, bowling, pretty much any sport knows how important the mental game is to this because tilting or getting upset in any game that is based in the realm of hand eye coordination effects your focus which effects your coordination and makes you play worse typically because the body is an instrument for the mind itself and it will hold back your mental ability in any game requiring physical input. I mean people lose on jeopardy because they can't press the button faster than someone else.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[a Chunk 2,795]

Using Halo as an example, since that's what I'm most familiar with, I think the importance of thumb skills in competitive FPS is actually overrated.  We've seen players with only slightly above average thumb skills perform at the highest levels almost entirely because of their mental abilities.  Walshy is the obvious example, and there have been others as well. 

 

A certain level of aiming competence is certainly required, but by and large aiming skill is not enough to propel a player to the higher levels of competition.  For sure it plays a part, but I just don't see thumb skill as being predominantly responsible for determining a players overall skill level.

[Soldat Du Christ 3,223]

3 hours ago, purely fat said:

I wouldn't call it just thumbs. It is hand eye coordination which in general is one of the most important motor skills we have. Are ability to do most things we do that make us human stems from this, partially because we have opposable thumbs. And anybody who has ever played baseball, golf, bowling, pretty much any sport knows how important the mental game is to this because tilting or getting upset in any game that is based in the realm of hand eye coordination effects your focus which effects your coordination and makes you play worse typically because the body is an instrument for the mind itself and it will hold back your mental ability in any game requiring physical input. I mean people lose on jeopardy because they can't press the button faster than someone else.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree and understand you can break down "thumbs" more accurately than i did, but still even granting what you said, do you think it is fair to have that skill overwhelm all other mental skills? Or do you agree with chunk and think that i'm overhyping how dominant it really is? Or do you just think its all fair game whether or not it is dominant over mental skills?

 

You can only blur the lines between mental and motor so much, yes they are linked through our nervous system but they are classified differently for a reason, and are intuitively understood to be different things

[purely fat 1,274]

1 hour ago, a Chunk said:

Using Halo as an example, since that's what I'm most familiar with, I think the importance of thumb skills in competitive FPS is actually overrated.  We've seen players with only slightly above average thumb skills perform at the highest levels almost entirely because of their mental abilities.  Walshy is the obvious example, and there have been others as well. 

 

A certain level of aiming competence is certainly required, but by and large aiming skill is not enough to propel a player to the higher levels of competition.  For sure it plays a part, but I just don't see thumb skill as being predominantly responsible for determining a players overall skill level.

I mean Rapha has never been the most mechanically gifted quake player. In fact most of best players in most sports are not the most physically gifted. They are physically gifted and meet a threshold requirement for mechanics but what separates them is their IQ for the game. I mean Lebron is extremely physically gifted but he isn't the fastest nor does he have the best hand eye coordination. There are also plenty of players built like him but he is very smart and maximizes his skill set better than they do. This has led to him being one of the greatest players of all time.