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On 10/12/2020 at 2:55 PM, Westin said:

Please stop tagging me and talking about me. You're like an 8 year old trying to annoy his sister with repetition at this point. Move on. Make a map. Leave me alone.

 

Edit: Just read the other posts, we're really talking about arcanum AGAIN? Bruh, you're obsessed, please find something else to think about I beg you. It's been  t h r e e  y e a r s  and I'm thinking it's about time to stop nathaniel

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31 minutes ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

Well after i submitted my csgo map for a second playtest i found out its perma banned from the discord of all tests because i didnt change enough about the map

Make something in Diabotical for the contest. Counter Strike is cool, but it isn't Quake.

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counter-strike is major boomer shit, so they're unwilling to try anything because it's NoT LIkE oThER maPS in CS:gO

 

I see the potential of the map, and I wish that Modern Warfare had mod tools because MW2019's SnD is the best in the series imo. Victorian literally looks like it would play like an MW map in SnD lol

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4 hours ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

Well after i submitted my csgo map for a second playtest i found out its perma banned from the discord of all tests because i didnt change enough about the map

Wow. That really sucks. So unless there was some MAJOR changes they ban your maps? So they dont believe in fine tuning I see. Is the community playtest that FULL of stuff to playtest?

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1 hour ago, Kantalope said:

counter-strike is major boomer shit, so they're unwilling to try anything because it's NoT LIkE oThER maPS in CS:gO

 

I see the potential of the map, and I wish that Modern Warfare had mod tools because MW2019's SnD is the best in the series imo. Victorian literally looks like it would play like an MW map in SnD lol

the map when I saw it was super vertical and could basically kill half your team if someone made the wrong step and fall to their death... Do you really expect a defining fps community of 20+ years to change their mindset for one map? no. there's loads more maps that could fill the roll.

 

This isn't a pushover community like halo, they're competitive at heart. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, JB_ said:

the map when I saw it was super vertical and could basically kill half your team if someone made the wrong step and fall to their death... Do you really expect a defining fps community of 20+ years to change their mindset for one map? no. there's loads more maps that could fill the roll.

 

This isn't a pushover community like halo, they're competitive at heart. 

 

 

Actually if you just walk off platforms, and dont jump off of them, you wont get fall damage, i def built the map with fall damage in mind, people like to arbitrarily jump off of ledges just because it feels cool or something. Most of the height variations have specific places to drop where you wont get fall damage

 

I understand they aren't obligated to play it, its their time, but its their reasoning that's irritating, bad arguments against it

1260918535_Forgemapsthumbnail.thumb.png.a0054255c7c5aba3a52c3cef60b4b815.png

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31 minutes ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

Actually if you just walk off platforms, and dont jump off of them, you wont get fall damage, i def built the map with fall damage in mind, people like to arbitrarily jump off of ledges just because it feels cool or something. Most of the height variations have specific places to drop where you wont get fall damage

 

I understand they aren't obligated to play it, its their time, but its their reasoning that's irritating, bad arguments against it

 that's the issue. when bomb is planted somewhere I shouldn't have to worry about my foot placement and where the right spot to jump is when rotate to the bomb site. I have a lot to take into account and now I have to do parkour on top of that, with the risk of falling and death/health loss.  On a normal cs go map, if you miss a jump, big deal. here I risk losing the match because of it.

 

 

again i dont know what you changed, I think the layout was fine, but the verticality was just too high and almost like walking on a tightrope... If scaled down more its perfectly fine

Edited by JB_
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I don’t play CS, but I’ll chime in with a couple comments @Soldat Du Christ - 

 

First, the couple times I’ve played CSGO I was completely btfo’d because mouse and keys is totally contrary to my brain’s wiring and because the people that play it are not just competitive, they are merciless, on a mission, and essentially treat each round as a game of chess with opening, mid, and endgame strats. Its skill ceiling is entirely about predictive map control  and fine input skills, things that take years to develop - and not something you can expect those who’ve invested heavily in to change their approach to overnight. 
 

Second, as to fall damage, that’s a major dealbreaker in CSGO, and in most games, where health is really limited and kill times insanely fast in the more developed and desirable game modes - Halo (2 - 5) and quake stand out in that respect, because they allow total freedom of motion while shooting and enough health to let you fight back. I think that even though you put it somewhere where you intended it to be a calculated risk, those kinds of variables will always tip the scales for the average CSGO player who wants to be able to push and retreat completely safely, see JB’s comments - UNLESS the map’s theme calls for and integrates such hazards, see de_highrise or whatever it’s called. 
 

Make a good map for the gametype and they’ll eventually figure it out :^)

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Yeah i dont disagree with those points, obviously i dont have a problem with fall damage or environmental hazards, i think they are cool as both a player and designer, but i can see why that would be a neg for cs boomers. Reminds me of halo kids complaining about death pits in forge maps, its all the same thing

1260918535_Forgemapsthumbnail.thumb.png.a0054255c7c5aba3a52c3cef60b4b815.png

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3 hours ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

Yeah i dont disagree with those points, obviously i dont have a problem with fall damage or environmental hazards, i think they are cool as both a player and designer, but i can see why that would be a neg for cs boomers. Reminds me of halo kids complaining about death pits in forge maps, its all the same thing

If you think Halo kids complaining about death pits is bad. Quake and TF2 nerds hate them even more. A number of duel maps like lost world used to have death pits but they were replaced with lava pits as the punishment with death pits for a slight screw up on a strafe jump was too high. It is the same principle as JB's point about CSGO. Generally speaking Halo is one of the few communities are not complained about that much. In fact those halo kids typically just want railings. I know this from getting the same "I keep falling off" feedback. I put railings on the map and they complained way less.

 

What we need to understand as designers is that you have to earn a player bases trust before they will entertain any sort of weirdness from you. Show you can make and understand what they like and then show them how you think their meta can evolve.

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That's how my defuse map de_standard is going to work: show that I understand what appeals and meshes with the series' current meta while introducing other ideas. It's bombsites are vertically stacked, and there's an incredibly quick rotate from A (top) to B (bottom) that requires knowledge of the surfing mechanic to properly accomplish the rotate. It doesn't help that it's out in the open, too, so it definitely requires set up, but it's only a small aspect of the map as a whole. BTW the theme is a Standard Oil kerosene plant with the site A being the main production control and site B being the main pipeline. The shape of the map might be a tad bit awkward, but that's not a problem as of now. I'll sketch up an image of the layout after I finish my midterms.

 

Edit: I realize that Standard Oil seized operations in 1911, the name is only temporary lol

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14 hours ago, JB_ said:

the map when I saw it was super vertical and could basically kill half your team if someone made the wrong step and fall to their death... Do you really expect a defining fps community of 20+ years to change their mindset for one map? no. there's loads more maps that could fill the roll.

 

This isn't a pushover community like halo, they're competitive at heart. 

 

 

I wouldn't say the Halo community is full of push overs persay, but rather has  a wider audience that has more diverse tastes and the game itself seems to support more variance in it's gameplay,   both mechanically and in it's map design.  Diversity, to a point, IS part of Halos Indentity. 

 

@Soldat Du Christ

We all know map design is part of FPS product indentity, and CS:GO map design in particular is very integral to the indentity of the game. I think It's this strong and unwavering identity that has kept the game so popular with it's fans for so long.   So while your map might provide a new an approach to the gameplay, maybe at it's core the design is changing the game into a different game then those already playing it are interested in? 

 

This is from the wiki page of games -

"Games with the same or similar rules may have different gameplay if the environment is altered. For example, hide-and-seek in a school building differs from the same game in a park; an auto race can be radically different depending on the track or street course, even with the same cars."

 

I believe maps themselves can alter a game to the point where is almost as if the game is something new entirely. 

 

Imagine if COD had Halo maps and Halo had Cod maps. I can't say you would see the same player base's and fans for each respective title. 

 

Now for the inevitable self plug. Stop reading here if your tired if me bringing up small doors lmao 

 

It's ironic that you're encountering this problem, because it's an issues you've had in the past when it comes to assessing Halo 5 maps, as well as others in the community. Originally you said looking at day of Defeat made you physically sick, and you hated many of my choices. However after playing it, you drew back many of your original claims. You were stubborn, but not to the point the csgo community is. Yet it was still there in some shape.  

 

 

This also has happened In other ways with other designers.

 I have no idea if this claim is true, because I didn't hear it directly or bother to ask, but I was told that @MultiLockOn said he'd instantly disqualify Day of Defeat if he was running the 2v2 contest.  This is close to some of the same reactions I got from the judges who judged the map sans @S0UL FLAME. I don't actually blame any of them, because I know how important indentity in design is to many members of the community, and certain design choices may be "poor design" if the designer is not considering the target audiences identity preferences. I KNEW going in that there'd be many adverse reactions to the map. Whats happening with victorian is quite similar to my situation,  you see the potential for new gameplay/play patterns and wish to share and evolve those ideas. The difference here is I've made countless maps that catered to Halo's identity previously, where this is your first CS map and even STILL I was treated with distrust by many of the people judging and play testing my works. So its no surprise to me that they weren't able to trust you, as someone who has only made one CS map. 

 

I personally believe Halo 5 lacks the most intentional identity of any Halo game to date, and thus I thought it the perfect platform to introduce new gameplay ideas and mechanics and it STILL was met with alot of opposition for my design choices. So with CS:GO having one of the strongest identities of any FPS ever, you gotta expect the opposition your gonna have as what your map is essentially doing is going against that identity in pretty powerful ways. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Also every time I hear anything about you or Box or Soul it's usually that you guys are in parties still talking shit about me or Westin, this would come up like once a week when I hopped on Xbox.  I really don't appreciate that and it's the same reason I'm a little hesitant to even communicate or play matches with you guys at this point.  It's kinda rude, and even a simple invitation to replay Arcanum has me thinking that it's really just so that 3 months from now you can bring up a random single scorecard from a match where I got more AR kills to show that Arcanum is an AR map.  I honestly just don't feel comfortable communicating with you guys because everything is double handed and I've heard a lot of what you guys say about us.  We don't talk about you, we don't even forge anymore.  I haven't spoken about your maps or my thoughts on this stuff in like over a year.  How long are you going to stew in whatever bitterness you feel towards me, like

 

I just don't want to be involved in this lol

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26 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

Also every time I hear anything about you or Box or Soul it's usually that you guys are in parties still talking shit about me or Westin, this would come up like once a week when I hopped on Xbox.  I really don't appreciate that and it's the same reason I'm a little hesitant to even communicate or play matches with you guys at this point.  It's kinda rude, and even a simple invitation to replay Arcanum has me thinking that it's really just so that 3 months from now you can bring up a random single scorecard from a match where I got more AR kills to show that Arcanum is an AR map.  I honestly just don't feel comfortable communicating with you guys because everything is double handed and I've heard a lot of what you guys say about us.  We don't talk about you, we don't even forge anymore.  I haven't spoken about your maps or my thoughts on this stuff in like over a year.  How long are you going to stew in whatever bitterness you feel towards me, like

 

I just don't want to be involved in this lol

I don’t know the details of who was involved or what has been done and such, but I could sense the sadness in this post. Sorry that you have to feel this way.

 

I’ve never interacted with you I think, but you know your stuff about designing and have always been respectful from what I’ve seen so you seem like a cool guy to me. 
 

Also really sad to see that some have been around for so long in the Forge community, you would think people wouldn’t be so childish and just grow up. I just turned 28 and just can’t imagine talking shit behind somebody’s back at all anymore. That’s the stuff you would do when we first played H3...

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1 hour ago, MultiLockOn said:

Also every time I hear anything about you or Box or Soul it's usually that you guys are in parties still talking shit about me or Westin, this would come up like once a week when I hopped on Xbox.  I really don't appreciate that and it's the same reason I'm a little hesitant to even communicate or play matches with you guys at this point.  It's kinda rude, and even a simple invitation to replay Arcanum has me thinking that it's really just so that 3 months from now you can bring up a random single scorecard from a match where I got more AR kills to show that Arcanum is an AR map.  I honestly just don't feel comfortable communicating with you guys because everything is double handed and I've heard a lot of what you guys say about us.  We don't talk about you, we don't even forge anymore.  I haven't spoken about your maps or my thoughts on this stuff in like over a year.  How long are you going to stew in whatever bitterness you feel towards me, like

 

I just don't want to be involved in this lol

I only ever brought up those matches to make a point regarding my decision making on the map. If I’m making bad decisions then why am I going positive half the time. 
 

Are we really going to pretend that you and Westin have never talked shit about anyone in this community behind their backs? 
 

 

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1 hour ago, MultiLockOn said:

Day of Defeat gives people more chances to escape a fight than I've seen in a forge map, ever.  It has a lot of corners, a lot of pockets, it's basically impossible to actually capitalize on winning a dozen consecutive gunfights in a row.  Because you'll go in to finish the kill and just get double meleed, or charged, or nade trapped in a corner, or they'll stall and run until their teammate respawns and comes to save them.  You can do 15 things correctly in a row, but it doesn't really matter because the defensive player usually has the advantage. 95% of my deaths on that map are in the dumbest shit way possible by someone who really didn't do anything to earn it.

Have you ever considered the fact that your actually doing 15 things incorrectly, that you thought were correct and then died as a result of your own actions? That you actually dont understand how to play the map?  The map intentionally subverts the normal expected play style of Halo 5, and punishes sloppy selfish play.   It demands utmost attention to micro positioning, team coordination, spatial awareness  and aptitude, precise deliberate movement( or lack therof when needed), extremely skillful nade usage and thrust management both offensively and defensively. 

 

 I can confidently say  your simply not as knowledgeable on all things design as you think you are. You lack a lot of nuance understanding or care for subtly, which is ever apparent on your maps that seem to treat  a lot of  visible micro geometry as a non important by product of your macro goals.    I do think you are an extremely talented individual, but one whose narrow vision is crippling your ability to understand things outside your own perception/understanding of design. 

 

1 hour ago, MultiLockOn said:

  There's already a bias skewed in your favor, in my eyes at least.  I've already told you some of your other stuff I think is some of the best maps I've played in Forge.  I think you make the best Big Team maps hands down.  Dawn of Defeat is really good. You've made a dozen more things I've played, and a score more past that which I've seen that all have been of the highest quality.  I know you can make good maps but I don't think Day of Defeat was one of them.  It's not because I'm bias, or adverse to new things, or hate small doorways, or that I didn't give it a chance, or that I didn't play it in a certain way, or I was the wrong target audience - it's that Halo 5 has very few strengths in gameplay and Day of Defeat doesn't do them any justice. 

What designs I create that you enjoy and what ones you dislike, is of little relevance to me and it is almost always predictable. 

I've always found it quite awkward and odd whenever Id show you a map and you'd say something along the lines of "its okay, you don't have to impress me, I've seen you make lots of good things you have so many maps". What gave you the impression that I ever felt the need or urge to impress you? If anything, you need to show ME you have as deep of an understanding of design as you claim you do.     The reason you are still talked about in forge parties to this day, is because I don't think there has yet to exist a designer as influential, or rather as vocal, as you who could not smell the reeking scent of there own shit.  Your self important views of design are quite interesting to say the least and it baffles me that someone could feel so self important that they believe themselves to be the steward of what is and isn't good design.   

Edited by SaltyKoalaBear
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