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1 hour ago, SaltyKoalaBear said:

I've always thought that as average individual lethality increases, the importance of  team shotting decreases. 

 

Compare Halo 3 to COD4.  In Halo 3 team shotting is a highly valuable skill, and the best players are highly skilled at target prioritization and positioning that supplements a good team shot. In COD4 team shotting is less impactful, and can even be a negative in many situations as two players shooting one can mean a loss or waste of resources/influence.  It's often more Important for the other teamate to check los/ take invidual fights and or occupy other portions of the map that are out of LOS of the would be team shot.

 

This is also sometimes true in Halo 3, but to a lesser degree and there is also situations in COD4 where team-shotting is viable but again, to a lesser degree. 

 

So I don't think it's necessarily about "killing teamwork" because I agree you can't "kill teamwork" but you can absolutely kill certain TYPES of teamwork by invidual empowerment and it's something that shouldn't be ignored. All teamwork isn't created equal and it's important to be mindful of the type of teamplay that is encouraged/ discouraged by individual empowerment. 

 

TTK differences, objective type differences, one vs multiple life modes, all of this is needed to understand when teamshotting is a good strategy. Teamshotting itself has benefits intrinsic to it, but it gains detriments once other aspects of teamwork are more emphasized. Just look at R6:S and CS:GO: limiting the other team's options and controlling information is necessary in winning each round due to the instant or near-instant TTK, static map-based objectives, and single life per round. Because every moment can be so clearly impactful to the outcome of a round, this limits level design greatly for both of these titles, especially CS:GO. This is the main reason why all of the map testers are so nitpicky with every aspect of a level. Map control being so crucial is why so many CS:GO maps can be represented with such low color count graphs compared to the rainbow that most generic Halo maps have. Personally, I see potential in a more 'open' map working in CS:GO, but the consensus is out with heavy influences from what I mentioned.

 

On an unrelated not, back to 'Project Winter's Combat Rifle! I'm thinking of having the CR be able to instantly kill with an unshielded headshot if it's from one of the first three shots fired within a burst/spray. Maybe have those same rounds be perfectly accurate? Hmmm? Pls give thoughts as you all always do : )

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9 hours ago, Kantalope said:

TTK differences, objective type differences, one vs multiple life modes, all of this is needed to understand when teamshotting is a good strategy. Teamshotting itself has benefits intrinsic to it, but it gains detriments once other aspects of teamwork are more emphasized. Just look at R6:S and CS:GO: limiting the other team's options and controlling information is necessary in winning each round due to the instant or near-instant TTK, static map-based objectives, and single life per round. Because every moment can be so clearly impactful to the outcome of a round, this limits level design greatly for both of these titles, especially CS:GO. This is the main reason why all of the map testers are so nitpicky with every aspect of a level. Map control being so crucial is why so many CS:GO maps can be represented with such low color count graphs compared to the rainbow that most generic Halo maps have. Personally, I see potential in a more 'open' map working in CS:GO, but the consensus is out with heavy influences from what I mentioned.

 

On an unrelated not, back to 'Project Winter's Combat Rifle! I'm thinking of having the CR be able to instantly kill with an unshielded headshot if it's from one of the first three shots fired within a burst/spray. Maybe have those same rounds be perfectly accurate? Hmmm? Pls give thoughts as you all always do : )

I was talking to NATHAN last night about that. Except, cod snd was used as an example. 

I think it would be smart if you did this to have the shots be perfectly accurate so people don't feel like they are rng'd. I think that would be interesting to at least try. The one thing you have to watch out for is people tapping the trigger which isn't to hard to deal with.

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59 minutes ago, JB_ said:

not like laser accurate right? spread isnt a bad thing and isnt rng. its just bungies implimentation of spread was RNG. first bullet goes straight. last 2 are random.

 

 

spread would help keep the rifle from feeling like a laser but youd have to keep a predetermined spread

he is just talking about the first shot not having spread. If the first shot had spread using it as a clean up gun would feel less consistent because it would be less clear to players how the spread works if they were to just jump into a game which is what your average gamer does. Even your example does this but most games that have good spread don't have rng spread. CSGO being the crown jewel example of how spread should be handled in a shooter. 

Wait, I think you just agreed with me anyways. lol

 

Just realized my post was probably not that clear. I am saying he should do the the first shot shit not having spread. Not telling him to have no spread.

Edited by purely fat
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I was thinking of having the scope's reticle just like this one from the BLOP1 G11 unique scope:

G11 | Nazi Zombies Wiki | Fandom

 

An idea that comes to mind is having the first shot be perfectly accurate, the next shot being halfway between the chevron and the top of the circle, the third at the top of the circle, and all subsequent shots going along the circle counterclockwise either at noticeable pace (think π/6 rad per shot) or with such a difference between shots that it's impractical to keep track( think 2π/3 radians or something similar). I'd prefer to have the recoil be straight upward, maybe a slight lean to the left or right, but ALWAYS the exact same direction. I much rather have people learn a spread pattern rather than a recoil pattern in a fast paced arena shooter.

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1 hour ago, JB_ said:

not like laser accurate right? spread isnt a bad thing and isnt rng. its just bungies implimentation of spread was RNG. first bullet goes straight. last 2 are random.

 

 

spread would help keep the rifle from feeling like a laser but youd have to keep a predetermined spread

What'd you mean here by "feeling like a laser"? It reads like you think that's a negative for gunplay, when to me the starting point for good gunplay is perfect accuracy. Could you explain what you meant a little more?

 

In the meantime, I see no reason to keep spread around in Halo. Spread may limit effective range on a weapon, but if that's what you want, projectile speed tuning can already do that. So... spread serves no real purpose other than causing players to miss shots even when the reticle is placed well. Shots missed because spread on a burst weapon is impossible to react to, as it's just not feasable to adjust your reticle in time (even with a predictable spread) when the bullets all come out within 3 miliseconds of eachother. I think this is a common design trap you see in games like CSGO. Just because something happens the same way every time (fixed spray patterns) doesn't mean I can actually contend with the events and learn from them, which is the entire point/draw of predictability in mechanics. So, even if it IS predictable, it also needs to be something I can adjust to, and spread on high rof weapons doesn't allow for that.

 

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, purely fat said:

 

Full auto is unique because it's essentially the same as recoil control, a general large scale movement. But, in any case where one bullet goes left and the next goes right, there's nothing you can do about it.

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40 minutes ago, Westin said:

What'd you mean here by "feeling like a laser"? It reads like you think that's a negative for gunplay, when to me the starting point for good gunplay is perfect accuracy. Could you explain what you meant a little more?

 

In the meantime, I see no reason to keep spread around in Halo. Spread may limit effective range on a weapon, but if that's what you want, projectile speed tuning can already do that. So... spread serves no real purpose other than causing players to miss shots even when the reticle is placed well. Shots missed because spread on a burst weapon is impossible to react to, as it's just not feasable to adjust your reticle in time (even with a predictable spread) when the bullets all come out within 3 miliseconds of eachother. I think this is a common design trap you see in games like CSGO. Just because something happens the same way every time (fixed spray patterns) doesn't mean I can actually contend with the events and learn from them, which is the entire point/draw of predictability in mechanics. So, even if it IS predictable, it also needs to be something I can adjust to, and spread on high rof weapons doesn't allow for that.

 

 

 

 

h5 br... laser. doesnt feel good at least to me. cause it has no spread sometimes flaws are the beauty but doesnt have to be as broken as h3. 

 

 

again spread doesnt mean innaccurate or random. assuming its predetermined it makes it actually feel like  a gun and has accuracy

Edited by JB_
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41 minutes ago, JB_ said:

h5 br... laser. doesnt feel good at least to me. cause it has no spread sometimes flaws are the beauty but doesnt have to be as broken as h3. 

 

 

again spread doesnt mean innaccurate or random. assuming its predetermined it makes it actually feel like  a gun and has accuracy

Well, I just explained why spread does mean less accuracy so I'm not sure what you mean when you say spread makes weapons feel accurate 

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1 hour ago, Westin said:

Well, I just explained why spread does mean less accuracy so I'm not sure what you mean when you say spread makes weapons feel accurate 

if the spread is tight it doesn't matter anymore though. Were talking bullets that still touch the outer circle of the first bullet.

 

f7b7d57f8950b1941459f9caa5a824e7.png

 

I just realized this diagram a little wrong, those bursts are shots within the one burst. It should be SHOT 1 SHOT 2 etc. not burst 1, burst 2.

 

Yeah it's less accurate but they're still overlapping the first bullet. As long as they overlap with the first shot there should be NO issue, but then at that point there doesn't even need to be spread since they'll all follow the first trail. 

 

 

hey man let me have my bias =(

Edited by JB_
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https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/news/inside-infinite-december-2020

 

WHOOOO HOOOOOOO! This got me feeling way better about infinite! Those Spartans towards the bottom look really good, and reach armor customisation confirmed! My bitterness is gone, but i'll try not to get excited until i see multiplayer gameplay

1260918535_Forgemapsthumbnail.thumb.png.a0054255c7c5aba3a52c3cef60b4b815.png

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44 minutes ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/news/inside-infinite-december-2020

 

WHOOOO HOOOOOOO! This got me feeling way better about infinite! Those Spartans towards the bottom look really good, and reach armor customisation confirmed! My bitterness is gone, but i'll try not to get excited until i see multiplayer gameplay


This isn’t meant as a response to you, more of a comment on what I saw and read at the Waypoint link you posted.

 

The map they show off looks like the watery H5 map that’s in the desert but not underwater, and with less interesting art. I didn’t think that was possible, given the move towards generic soft-anime SciFi paneling, but they somehow managed it. I also see that the map is overscaled the same way H5 is, and the spartan models are essentially default Reach + accessories.  The weapon models, hitscan BR in particular, look just as crispy as they did in the E3 trailer. Not promising!

 

Here’s the two things that REALLY stood out: first, the weapon ‘inspection’ screen. This looks like a skin inspection render w/out UI, or maybe a REQ inspection screen - or both? I imagine there will be a Fortnite menu with $€£¥ all over it. Second, the lighting quality in general. The spartan models in the spotlights look nice enough, and the staged backgrounds look ok, but that’s normal for out of focus depth of field. All of it in the field.. not so much. Shadow/Light quality on the two Spartans in the map looks like H5 Forge.  The holographic lights underneath the weapon inspections also looks way too crisp, like the light isn’t reacting to the materials properly, but that’s a nitpick.

 

It looks like what should have been released in 2015, to me, right now. Will update w/relevant pics:

 

593D4B38-7D0A-4B52-B38E-72E65F906AB8.jpeg.3706e0b20be43f9b51cb97c91fa082a0.jpeg
Looks straight out of H5Forge

BE02DD6C-4E32-45F1-B899-073FAD43B4BA.thumb.jpeg.5f9cfea540312acf433ee4c1d55259a2.jpeg

Note shadows from both model and geometry, and materials at rear - it’s a little... lifeless? Especially when compared to the bright neon from that fan thing.

9C6FBB47-328B-4337-9BB2-313F43A48DC0.thumb.jpeg.abc9531ea9eebd8776bff3d0eeab095f.jpeg

Same issue, lights aren’t baked on the crate but they are on the trash bags behind and further away...

EEC679F5-A993-4572-B1C5-5EDC1A091CCD.thumb.jpeg.85f23bc75eebb950d20effc9e2c64689.jpeg

Reach harder - it’s just weird, even with the same base armor it looks somehow worse in 4K HDR than it did in 720p 10 years ago. Just... weird. Anyone else feel that?

2F2EA5EC-2FDF-4915-B392-AB894F56FC7A.jpeg.45b5994338ec54509c897ec54767351b.jpeg2010image.jpeg.f552c53fd5c54e747c4a2245b0e115e9.jpeg2010 ported directly to 2020

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15 minutes ago, icyhotspartin said:


This isn’t meant as a response to you, more of a comment on what I saw and read at the Waypoint link you posted.

 

The map they show off looks like the watery H5 map that’s in the desert but not underwater, and with less interesting art. I didn’t think that was possible, given the move towards generic soft-anime SciFi paneling, but they somehow managed it. I also see that the map is overscaled the same way H5 is, and the spartan models are essentially default Reach + accessories.  The weapon models, hitscan BR in particular, look just as crispy as they did in the E3 trailer. Not promising!

 

Here’s the two things that REALLY stood out: first, the weapon ‘inspection’ screen. This looks like a skin inspection render w/out UI, or maybe a REQ inspection screen - or both? I imagine there will be a Fortnite menu with $€£¥ all over it. Second, the lighting quality in general. The spartan models in the spotlights look nice enough, and the staged backgrounds look ok, but that’s normal for out of focus depth of field. All of it in the field.. not so much. Shadow/Light quality on the two Spartans in the map looks like H5 Forge.  The holographic lights underneath the weapon inspections also looks way too crisp, like the light isn’t reacting to the materials properly, but that’s a nitpick.

 

It looks like what should have been released in 2015, to me, right now. Will update w/relevant pics

 

 

damn I thought I was still on team beyond

 lmaooo

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13 minutes ago, icyhotspartin said:


This isn’t meant as a response to you, more of a comment on what I saw and read at the Waypoint link you posted.

 

The map they show off looks like the watery H5 map that’s in the desert but not underwater, and with less interesting art. I didn’t think that was possible, given the move towards generic soft-anime SciFi paneling, but they somehow managed it. I also see that the map is overscaled the same way H5 is, and the spartan models are essentially default Reach + accessories.  The weapon models, hitscan BR in particular, look just as crispy as they did in the E3 trailer. Not promising!

 

Here’s the two things that REALLY stood out: first, the weapon ‘inspection’ screen. This looks like a skin inspection render w/out UI, or maybe a REQ inspection screen - or both? I imagine there will be a Fortnite menu with $€£¥ all over it. Second, the lighting quality in general. The spartan models in the spotlights look nice enough, and the staged backgrounds look ok, but that’s normal for out of focus depth of field. All of it in the field.. not so much. Shadow/Light quality on the two Spartans in the map looks like H5 Forge.  The holographic lights underneath the weapon inspections also looks way too crisp, like the light isn’t reacting to the materials properly, but that’s a nitpick.

 

It looks like what should have been released in 2015, to me, right now. Will update w/relevant pics

 

 

Can you give some examples of what they should have aimed for instead? Besides the generator looking thing, these screenshots look as true to Bungie-era UNSC environment art that we've ever gotten.

 

Though I still will not get over the giant metal rods that are supposed to represent forerunner tech in that last screenshot. That is completely unforgivable lmao

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17 minutes ago, Brad said:

Can you give some examples of what they should have aimed for instead? Besides the generator looking thing, these screenshots look as true to Bungie-era UNSC environment art that we've ever gotten.

 

Though I still will not get over the giant metal rods that are supposed to represent forerunner tech in that last screenshot. That is completely unforgivable lmao


There’s no indication that the Infinite map on display is UNSC, in fact it is labeled “Axys”, which I assume is a hydrogen fuel cell production company based on the evidence. It looks to have the same flat textures and materials on display in H5’s human maps, just at a higher resolution. There are tons of examples of human architecture From previous Halo products to pull from that don’t include white paneling - there’s The Pit, there’s Ghost Town, Elongation, Sword Base, Power Station (? Reach map), Ivory Tower (H2 and Reach versions are totally different, the entirety of New and Old Mombasa, Zanzibar, High Ground, Orbital, Rat’s Nest... need I expand further? Every 343 human map, WITH THE EXCEPTION of The Pit(fall) in H4, has had white paneling all over it - even the BTB Forge maps in H5 MM! 
 

Totally agreed re. rods, no excuse. I wonder how Joe Staten is doing...

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14 minutes ago, icyhotspartin said:


There’s no indication that the Infinite map on display is UNSC, in fact it is labeled “Axys”, which I assume is a hydrogen fuel cell production company based on the evidence. It looks to have the same flat textures and materials on display in H5’s human maps, just at a higher resolution. There are tons of examples of human architecture From previous Halo products to pull from that don’t include white paneling - there’s The Pit, there’s Ghost Town, Elongation, Sword Base, Power Station (? Reach map), Ivory Tower (H2 and Reach versions are totally different, the entirety of New and Old Mombasa, Zanzibar, High Ground, Orbital, Rat’s Nest... need I expand further? Every 343 human map, WITH THE EXCEPTION of The Pit(fall) in H4, has had white paneling all over it - even the BTB Forge maps in H5 MM! 
 

Totally agreed re. rods, no excuse. I wonder how Joe Staten is doing...

I use UNSC and human-industrial interchangably, I should have been more clear with that. Even so, I don't think the inclusion of white paneling or "flat textures" is grounds for dismissal.. I thought the main critisim for 343's human architecture was that it was all overdesigned? I think this is what I'm confused about the most. The flat textures and repeating patterns is a halmark of Bungies human art style. Hypothetically, if all those maps you listed got a 1:1 remaster for Infinite, I don't think anyone could pick from a pool of screenshots and say "ya, the map with the white paneling and flat textures is definitly not Halo". 

 

Though this is only one map, we'll have to see for ourselves on lauch how everything else holds up. 

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1 hour ago, Brad said:

I use UNSC and human-industrial interchangably, I should have been more clear with that. Even so, I don't think the inclusion of white paneling or "flat textures" is grounds for dismissal.. I thought the main critisim for 343's human architecture was that it was all overdesigned? I think this is what I'm confused about the most. The flat textures and repeating patterns is a halmark of Bungies human art style. Hypothetically, if all those maps you listed got a 1:1 remaster for Infinite, I don't think anyone could pick from a pool of screenshots and say "ya, the map with the white paneling and flat textures is definitly not Halo". 

 

Though this is only one map, we'll have to see for ourselves on lauch how everything else holds up. 


I agree that it isn’t grounds for dismissal in and of itself. And that it is only a few screens of one map, perhaps there will be 9 more with interesting looks.

 

But in terms of visual language, 343 have taken the approach that the human faction must be homogenous - all human architecture must be of the same vintage and of the same type of make-believe modular design, otherwise how would the player know they are on a human planet? That’s really limiting things in terms of exploring the Halo universe, insulting to the player’s intelligence, and kind of alienates people from the Human faction.

 

Bungie didn’t do that with human architecture, there are far more tones, textures, and varieties of shapes in Bungie’s old human stuff, even when they used repeating patterns or panels like on The Pit or in parts of ODST. Where there was consistency was in UNSC ships, equipment, computer systems - but not the architectural styles. Even within Covenant and Forerunner art there was coherent, yet varied styles and tones. 
 

Anyway, the track record speaks for itself, and that’s why I think it is grounds for dismissal in this case. 

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56 minutes ago, icyhotspartin said:


I agree that it isn’t grounds for dismissal in and of itself. And that it is only a few screens of one map, perhaps there will be 9 more with interesting looks.

 

But in terms of visual language, 343 have taken the approach that the human faction must be homogenous - all human architecture must be of the same vintage and of the same type of make-believe modular design, otherwise how would the player know they are on a human planet? That’s really limiting things in terms of exploring the Halo universe, insulting to the player’s intelligence, and kind of alienates people from the Human faction.

 

Bungie didn’t do that with human architecture, there are far more tones, textures, and varieties of shapes in Bungie’s old human stuff, even when they used repeating patterns or panels like on The Pit or in parts of ODST. Where there was consistency was in UNSC ships, equipment, computer systems - but not the architectural styles. Even within Covenant and Forerunner art there was coherent, yet varied styles and tones. 
 

Anyway, the track record speaks for itself, and that’s why I think it is grounds for dismissal in this case. 

I may have to take some H5 dev/forge asset comparison screenshots. I'm noticing far too many 343isms here.  They are obsessed with panels and clips, it's extremely obnoxious. 

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@Westin Personally, I would rather see a tac shooter with gun mechanics like apex or siege.  Also, we are just going to disagree on whether someone can control sway and recoil. I side with evidence that they can. Maybe not to degree you like which is fine but there are definitely people who can control it.

 

 

 

Edited by purely fat
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