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8 hours ago, Westin said:

Also I just wanna say - though this might open up wounds again - I don't feel like this whole conversation was ever two sided. Like, maybe I'm jaded, but @Box_Hoes when I read your question I... I don't see a question anymore, I see someone prodding, trying to get me to slip. Really. Seems like I could write a thesis the length of Harry Potter and wouldn't be any closer to coming to an understanding. The whole thing would just repeat itself, with a new reports of gossipy xbox live conversations, and some new shotposting hand-crafted with special care to try and upset me. Again, maybe it's just me, but really I don't think you guys are actually interesting in hearing my perspective or understanding it anymore, and as a result I'm not interested in explaining unless it's in a video format - and really, that's for everyone else.

Fair enough 

 

Was honestly just looking for a response so I can see how others interpret things. I think I assess things differently, doesn’t mean they are right. 
 

I’ll stop asking and take my questions elsewhere 

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5 hours ago, SaltyKoalaBear said:

Once one realizes where your perspective and understanding falls apart, all the past wounds are healed. In fact, it makes you wonder why there were any wounds in the first place... Really quite silly in retrospect.   Im 99% sure @Box_Hoes wants to hear your explanation because he in part finds it amusing and in part is actually confused about your takes. 

 

I think what has thrown him off is your inability to accurately asses logic/gameplay functions of geometry on maps, specifically his own . I could imagine the frustration of a player with lesser skill and game knowledge in Halo 5 asserting how something functions when you as the better and wiser player know it doesn't function that way with reasonable certainty. 

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Were talking about they guy that watches hours of high level 2v2 gameplay for the sake of studying movement and combat patterns alone. 

 

  It's all a bit comical to me, I actually laugh at how much care and investment I've had in my peers opinions in the past, I can thankfully say I'm finally over it.   

 

 

Im guessing this is just a miscommunication, but Is it true that you believe holding the inside of the pyramid on Nomad to be a viable strategy? 

 

 

DAMN SOME SERIOUS NOSTALGIA, and Nostalgia from h5 no less

 

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4 minutes ago, JB_ said:

DAMN SOME SERIOUS NOSTALGIA, and Nostalgia from h5 no less

 

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I remember this, I had a realization though that the amount of decisions you have to make in halo 5 is sick and is predictable. It’s still not halo but I like the game for what it is at this point in time (HCS settings only) thrust could use a little nerf. The aiming will always be trash unfortunately. Such a cool game

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24 minutes ago, Box_Hoes said:

I remember this, I had a realization though that the amount of decisions you have to make in halo 5 is sick and is predictable. It’s still not halo but I like the game for what it is at this point in time (HCS settings only) thrust could use a little nerf. The aiming will always be trash unfortunately. Such a cool game

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7 hours ago, SaltyKoalaBear said:

Once one realizes where your perspective and understanding falls apart, all the past wounds are healed. In fact, it makes you wonder why there were any wounds in the first place... Really quite silly in retrospect.   Im 99% sure @Box_Hoes wants to hear your explanation because he in part finds it amusing and in part is actually confused about your takes. 

 

I think what has thrown him off is your inability to accurately asses logic/gameplay functions of geometry on maps, specifically his own . I could imagine the frustration of a player with lesser skill and game knowledge in Halo 5 asserting how something functions when you as the better and wiser player know it doesn't function that way with reasonable certainty. 

box.PNG.963fd46856d2a5b620323ab2b3caf002.PNG

Were talking about they guy that watches hours of high level 2v2 gameplay for the sake of studying movement and combat patterns alone. 

 

  It's all a bit comical to me, I actually laugh at how much care and investment I've had in my peers opinions in the past, I can thankfully say I'm finally over it.   

 

 

Im guessing this is just a miscommunication, but Is it true that you believe holding the inside of the pyramid on Nomad to be a viable strategy? 

 

 

Dude, I've played the map 3 times ever, on a whim having not played Halo 5 in 10 months. So, no, I wouldn't make any real claims about it whatsoever. If whatever I happened to say about the pyramid while playing it like 2 months ago is still on both your minds (words I don't even remember myself), then... I don't think I believe you when you say you're finally over the opinions of your peers. This is just more proof that neither of you actually want an understanding.

 

The only other time I can ever remember talking to Box about his maps was back when he was making iceworm. He asked for my opinion and I think I basically said what I would say to any map that purposefully spawn traps a team - I fundamentally disagree with the premise from the start... so my feedback wouldn't really do much for the map. He understood completely as I remember and didn't argue about what the map was, and just said "yeah I like punishing maps". So, unless y'all changed your mind about that I literally cannot think of another instance where I might've assessed his maps. Oh, maybe back in the day when he was making legion 2, and even then I didn't say anything radical that he himself didn't agree with.

 

I regret that I even have to say this, but I'm really tired of this "Box is a god, bow down" crap. First of all - that argument has been dismantled more times than anyone here can count, thousands of times by thousands of people over thousands of years. Being good at something doesn't inject meaning into your theories and doesn't necessarily make you a better designer. It can help! But uh, Deisel - a pro - made Tesla. Just stop it with that. The two things aren't inseparable. One other thing. I remember playing Box in H2A and for the first few years of Halo 5, and he was never that good. Of course he's good, but being champion ranked 6 years into a dead game when then only people left are clan kids, you, and box doesn't mean much of anything to me, really. Play any other game but the one that takes a year to rewire your neurons just to understand the aiming system and maybe then a high ranking would mean something.

 

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14 minutes ago, Westin said:

Dude, I've played the map 3 times ever, on a whim having not played Halo 5 in 10 months. So, no, I wouldn't make any real claims about it whatsoever. If whatever I happened to say about the pyramid while playing it like 2 months ago is still on both your minds (words I don't even remember myself), then... I don't think I believe you when you say you're finally over the opinions of your peers. This is just more proof that neither of you actually want an understanding.

 

The only other time I can ever remember talking to Box about his maps was back when he was making iceworm. He asked for my opinion and I think I basically said what I would say to any map that purposefully spawn traps a team - I fundamentally disagree with the premise from the start... so my feedback wouldn't really do much for the map. He understood completely as I remember and didn't argue about what the map was, and just said "yeah I like punishing maps". So, unless y'all changed your mind about that I literally cannot think of another instance where I might've assessed his maps. Oh, maybe back in the day when he was making legion 2, and even then I didn't say anything radical that he himself didn't agree with.

 

I regret that I even have to say this, but I'm really tired of this "Box is a god, bow down" crap. First of all - that argument has been dismantled more times than anyone here can count, thousands of times by thousands of people over thousands of years. Being good at something doesn't inject meaning into your theories and doesn't necessarily make you a better designer. It can help! But uh, Deisel - a pro - made Tesla. Just stop it with that. The two things aren't inseparable. One other thing. I remember playing Box in H2A and for the first few years of Halo 5, and he was never that good. Of course he's good, but being champion ranked 6 years into a dead game when then only people left are clan kids, you, and box doesn't mean much of anything to me, really. Play any other game but the one that takes a year to rewire your neurons just to understand the aiming system and maybe then a high ranking would mean something.

 

On second thought... I can see it. Maybe I'll change my gamertag to a phrase, then play Halo 5 every day intead of being productive, and then I'll be able to finally unlock ascended designer status.

 

No need to get defensive, I acknowledged it could have been a miscommunication. It appears it was, that simple.  We talk about everyone's takes on the map that has given one, your not a special case.  As you said you played it 2 or 3 times, I'm not condemneding you calm down. 

 

 I completely agree that actual skill in the game doesn't have a direct relationship with how good of a designer you are. My point was never this.  Rather that skill in the game, and game KNOWLEDGE will give a person a better understanding of how gameplay within a map will manifest itself.  Someone with lesser knowledge may believe only A, B, C are possible in an area while A, B, C, D and E options are. 

The more game knowledge you have, the better you can understand how your applied logic will manifest itself in game. 

 

I just don't see you having the same understanding of the actual game as he does, but again I could be wrong. 

 

In fact this is where the hole in any philosophy lie. I could be 100% accurate about my goals for a level Design, but if I lack understanding of objective geometry functions,  that's going to skew how that philosophy is applied or interpreted. Ill reiterate.

 

Let's say I believe all maps should allow for multiple ways to push a position.  Based on my hypothetical assessment of a map and my own playtests, I determine that the map doesn't allow for enough ways to push and is therefore unjust. I share this claim with another group of designers, but they disagree. Not with my belief that only a few ways to push is unjust, but with my premise that there ARE only a few ways to push.  They show me high-level gameplay and as it turns out the players were pushing in ways I never assessed properly in my hypotheticals or playtests. This oversight arose due to a fundamental lack of my own understanding of objective geometry functions.   See my point? 

 

Your core beliefs can be gold, but it you don't understand  what your judging with your core beliefs it can create huge gaps in understanding. This is the fallible and ambiguous part of your philosophy, not the philosophy itself. 

 

 

 

 

I see you on World of Warcraft often, is that game more productive then Halo 5 and forge? Let's not point fingers at people for choosing how they spend there entertainment time, your making this all too personal my man. 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Westin said:

Dude, I've played the map 3 times ever, on a whim having not played Halo 5 in 10 months. So, no, I wouldn't make any real claims about it whatsoever. If whatever I happened to say about the pyramid while playing it like 2 months ago is still on both your minds (words I don't even remember myself), then... I don't think I believe you when you say you're finally over the opinions of your peers. This is just more proof that neither of you actually want an understanding.

 

The only other time I can ever remember talking to Box about his maps was back when he was making iceworm. He asked for my opinion and I think I basically said what I would say to any map that purposefully spawn traps a team - I fundamentally disagree with the premise from the start... so my feedback wouldn't really do much for the map. He understood completely as I remember and didn't argue about what the map was, and just said "yeah I like punishing maps". So, unless y'all changed your mind about that I literally cannot think of another instance where I might've assessed his maps. Oh, maybe back in the day when he was making legion 2, and even then I didn't say anything radical that he himself didn't agree with.

 

I regret that I even have to say this, but I'm really tired of this "Box is a god, bow down" crap. First of all - that argument has been dismantled more times than anyone here can count, thousands of times by thousands of people over thousands of years. Being good at something doesn't inject meaning into your theories and doesn't necessarily make you a better designer. It can help! But uh, Deisel - a pro - made Tesla. Just stop it with that. The two things aren't inseparable. One other thing. I remember playing Box in H2A and for the first few years of Halo 5, and he was never that good. Of course he's good, but being champion ranked 6 years into a dead game when then only people left are clan kids, you, and box doesn't mean much of anything to me, really. Play any other game but the one that takes a year to rewire your neurons just to understand the aiming system and maybe then a high ranking would mean something.

 

I made nomad to show I can make something with “integrity”. I believe the map can’t stagnate and punishes camping. Having good options off spawn. You should never feel cheated dying. Being “just”. Not being fast for fast, being able to control pace. Each game playing different. Strategies constantly changing. Rewarding pushing and not just holding forward. Heavily rewards good mental play (preemptive). Not being to escape easily.  I honestly believe it does everything you guys preach in your philosophy. I used a method I like to call time bombing that a lot of other designers use I’m sure. Any spot on the map you think you can camp while winning has exaggerated counters to ensure you have to actively contest the sightlines to those counters. If you aren’t contesting the sightlines (camping) you are putting yourself in a huge disadvantage to get out positioned. This in itself can prevent any form of stagnation. There is a threat no matter where you stand on nomad and that was my goal. This is my standpoint after about 30 or so games and I will be greatly humbled if the day comes to there being serious issues. I’m not gong to pretend I know every possible nuance situation from pure hypotheticals that’s ridiculous, I will continue to learn more about the map as I play it as ANYBODY should. Nobody is above play testing. 
 

WHY I’m saying this... who are you to say this form of design is superior. While I can appreciate it you are limiting other skill sets. It takes more integrity to play maps that aren’t “just” than maps that have preset number of binary routes. It’s a lot harder to make a wrong decision on a map like arcanum for example than it is day of defeat. There is temptation everywhere. You need discipline to play it and the more I play it the more I appreciate that. And no it’s not even in my top 5 top or 10 favorite maps (maybe). But the integrity lies within the player and not the map. I’m not saying arcanum is better than day of defeat before you guys go off the walls either. Too much complaining about maps being at fault when really it’s a players own shortcomings.  That’s why the contest was absolute SHIT. Half the players were false assessing geometry. Making poor reads. Purely got robbed. So what if i fundamentally disagree that all maps should be based on your philosophy? You can argue maps with “integrity” don’t allow a player to fully develop and grow. Maps that aren’t “just” can help make you a much better player. 

 

As far as my skill I could honestly care less what you think of my skill as a player. Whether you like it or not halo 5 objectively has an insane skill gap and requires a ton of fast decision making. I would recommend watching bound or shottzy play 2s because they make outstanding plays that still push the movement meta to this day, problem is most people see it as random/not valuable because it is invisible to their naked eye what is actually happening. All of their “reactive” skills they use are still premeditated. So I would agree you don’t have to be good at the game to design but you at least need to understand it like they do for the highest level, otherwise you aren’t thinking about your map at the highest level and all potential possibilities, especially when players can’t perform mechanical feats like they can. 
 

For the record I was better at all of the older halos, at least I’m humble enough to admit that halo 5s skill gap is high enough to where I get near goosed against high champions. I don’t blame it on the game or maps. I go back in theater and watch how I could approach things differently. I acknowledge my own short comings. 
 

If you can’t handle winning a gunfight and a player just “escaping” maybe FPS games aren’t for you and something more like chess would be best suited for this type of thinking. 
 

Also when designing maps for integrity where is all the forgiveness and reconciliation in choice making. A lot of it seems one and done. 

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1 hour ago, SaltyKoalaBear said:

No need to get defensive, I acknowledged it could have been a miscommunication. It appears it was, that simple.  We talk about everyone's takes on the map that has given one, your not a special case.  As you said you played it 2 or 3 times, I'm not condemneding you calm down. 

 

 I completely agree that actual skill in the game doesn't have a direct relationship with how good of a designer you are. My point was never this.  Rather that skill in the game, and game KNOWLEDGE will give a person a better understanding of how gameplay within a map will manifest itself.  Someone with lesser knowledge may believe only A, B, C are possible in an area while A, B, C, D and E options are. 

The more game knowledge you have, the better you can understand how your applied logic will manifest itself in game. 

 

I just don't see you having the same understanding of the actual game as he does, but again I could be wrong. 

 

In fact this is where the hole in any philosophy lie. I could be 100% accurate about my goals for a level Design, but if I lack understanding of objective geometry functions,  that's going to skew how that philosophy is applied or interpreted. Ill reiterate.

 

Let's say I believe all maps should allow for multiple ways to push a position.  Based on my hypothetical assessment of a map and my own playtests, I determine that the map doesn't allow for enough ways to push and is therefore unjust. I share this claim with another group of designers, but they disagree. Not with my belief that only a few ways to push is unjust, but with my premise that there ARE only a few ways to push.  They show me high-level gameplay and as it turns out the players were pushing in ways I never assessed properly in my hypotheticals or playtests. This oversight arose due to a fundamental lack of my own understanding of objective geometry functions.   See my point? 

 

Your core beliefs can be gold, but it you don't understand  what your judging with your core beliefs it can create huge gaps in understanding. This is the fallible and ambiguous part of your philosophy, not the philosophy itself. 

 

 

 

 

I see you on World of Warcraft often, is that game more productive then Halo 5 and forge? Let's not point fingers at people for choosing how they spend there entertainment time, your making this all too personal my man. 

 

 

 

 

 

And now, after everything you've posted, after all the gossip, you play the reasonable nice guy. Man, now THAT is that frustrating, and especially so because now you've trapped me... because if I bring up all that you've said and done (like I kinda just did) then it makes me look like the bad guy. You're masterful at this to say the least.

 

Moving on, your entire post is something extremely obvious made to sound profound. Yes, knowing more lets you know more. If that's really all you're trying to say then don't post the picture of someones rank in Halo 5, because that picture alone suggests more - not to mention the text that came along with it. And, ike I said, Box isn't some ascended god of Halo 5. Brother, I don't know how bad you think I am but if you really want to think that there's some hidden meta of skill in Halo 5 that only champion 17 and above can see, which I am personally oblivious to, then I won't try to convince you otherwise because I feel like that is one of the most  self-evidently silly things you've ever suggested. We at least agree on this - that yes you can have sound principals and make mistakes. But it seems to me that you've always argued in part against the principals themselves, and are now sort of backing off from that route in favor of a more tame, reasonable perspective that literally nobody here would disagree with.

 

Oh, and I play wow 2-3 hours a night, 4 days a week with my two brothers who don't play other games. So yes, definitely more productive than being on Halo 5 at 8 am every day, BUT I agree and admit that I should've have even brought that up. More than anything I was trying to point out how dead the game is, which is why I quickly edited that part out.

 

 

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34 minutes ago, Box_Hoes said:

I made nomad to show I can make something with “integrity”. I believe the map can’t stagnate and punishes camping. Having good options off spawn. You should never feel cheated dying. Being “just”. Not being fast for fast, being able to control pace. Each game playing different. Strategies constantly changing. Rewarding pushing and not just holding forward. Heavily rewards good mental play (preemptive). Not being to escape easily.  I honestly believe it does everything you guys preach in your philosophy. I used a method I like to call time bombing that a lot of other designers use I’m sure. Any spot on the map you think you can camp while winning has exaggerated counters to ensure you have to actively contest the sightlines to those counters. If you aren’t contesting the sightlines (camping) you are putting yourself in a huge disadvantage to get out positioned. This in itself can prevent any form of stagnation. There is a threat no matter where you stand on nomad and that was my goal. This is my standpoint after about 30 or so games and I will be greatly humbled if the day comes to there being serious issues. I’m not gong to pretend I know every possible nuance situation from pure hypotheticals that’s ridiculous, I will continue to learn more about the map as I play it as ANYBODY should. Nobody is above play testing. 
 

WHY I’m saying this... who are you to say this form of design is superior. While I can appreciate it you are limiting other skill sets. It takes more integrity to play maps that aren’t “just” than maps that have preset number of binary routes. It’s a lot harder to make a wrong decision on a map like arcanum for example than it is day of defeat. There is temptation everywhere. You need discipline to play it and the more I play it the more I appreciate that. And no it’s not even in my top 5 top or 10 favorite maps (maybe). But the integrity lies within the player and not the map. I’m not saying arcanum is better than day of defeat before you guys go off the walls either. Too much complaining about maps being at fault when really it’s a players own shortcomings.  That’s why the contest was absolute SHIT. Half the players were false assessing geometry. Making poor reads. Purely got robbed. So what if i fundamentally disagree that all maps should be based on your philosophy? You can argue maps with “integrity” don’t allow a player to fully develop and grow. Maps that aren’t “just” can help make you a much better player. 

 

As far as my skill I could honestly care less what you think of my skill as a player. Whether you like it or not halo 5 objectively has an insane skill gap and requires a ton of fast decision making. I would recommend watching bound or shottzy play 2s because they make outstanding plays that still push the movement meta to this day, problem is most people see it as random/not valuable because it is invisible to their naked eye what is actually happening. All of their “reactive” skills they use are still premeditated. So I would agree you don’t have to be good at the game to design but you at least need to understand it like they do for the highest level, otherwise you aren’t thinking about your map at the highest level and all potential possibilities, especially when players can’t perform mechanical feats like they can. 
 

For the record I was better at all of the older halos, at least I’m humble enough to admit that halo 5s skill gap is high enough to where I get near goosed against high champions. I don’t blame it on the game or maps. I go back in theater and watch how I could approach things differently. I acknowledge my own short comings. 
 

If you can’t handle winning a gunfight and a player just “escaping” maybe FPS games aren’t for you and something more like chess would be best suited for this type of thinking. 
 

Also when designing maps for integrity where is all the forgiveness and reconciliation in choice making. A lot of it seems one and done. 

I don't even disagree with most of this. Halo 5 definitely has a skill gap and not every mistake is the maps fault. That's just... do you really think I think that? Come on man. That's ridiculous. It seems like you guys have this image of your head of me like I'm a caricature of all my worst traits dialed to 11. I don't actually think it's the game or map when I lose man, cut me some slack.

 

More than that but in the same vein - once again you're repeating what salty has said, the "who are you to say x" argument, when not once have I ever cited my own authority as an argument. I've made my arguments clear - or at least tried to, that morality plays the pivotal role. If I've made that clear, you're still projecting something onto me that I don't deserve, an attitude I don't have. If I haven't made that clear, then that's on me and this whole thing has just been confusion and that's my fault. BUT - I really don't think that's the case. What I believe is pretty simple honestly and it only ever gets muddled up when salty starts throwing confused food anologies at me 30 times a post. So, just address the ideas, not me. Please.

 

And what you said about integrity being in the player and not the map  - what are we talking about? Maps or something else? If we're talking just about maps, then I don't think you even believe that. If integrity was all in the player, then literally any map would work. No. The problem is the opposite, that nobody really has integrity, and that's why you design around it. People WILL abuse whatever you let them abuse, because we're all scumbags to be honest lol. Just one look at Destiny 2 weapons and subclasses used and my point is proven. That's why a game or map must design with that in mind, or die. We kill our games, we kill our lives, we kill our nations, because we're not actually good, which is why restraints are necessary.

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1 hour ago, Westin said:

I don't even disagree with most of this. Halo 5 definitely has a skill gap and not every mistake is the maps fault. That's just... do you really think I think that? Come on man. That's ridiculous. It seems like you guys have this image of your head of me like I'm a caricature of all my worst traits dialed to 11. I don't actually think it's the game or map when I lose man, cut me some slack.

 

More than that but in the same vein - once again you're repeating what salty has said, the "who are you to say x" argument, when not once have I ever cited my own authority as an argument. I've made my arguments clear - or at least tried to, that morality plays the pivotal role. If I've made that clear, you're still projecting something onto me that I don't deserve, an attitude I don't have. If I haven't made that clear, then that's on me and this whole thing has just been confusion and that's my fault. BUT - I really don't think that's the case. What I believe is pretty simple honestly and it only ever gets muddled up when salty starts throwing confused food anologies at me 30 times a post. So, just address the ideas, not me. Please.

 

And what you said about integrity being in the player and not the map  - what are we talking about? Maps or something else? If we're talking just about maps, then I don't think you even believe that. If integrity was all in the player, then literally any map would work. No. The problem is the opposite, that nobody really has integrity, and that's why you design around it. People WILL abuse whatever you let them abuse, because we're all scumbags to be honest lol. Just one look at Destiny 2 weapons and subclasses used and my point is proven. That's why a game or map must design with that in mind, or die. We kill our games, we kill our lives, we kill our nations, because we're not actually good, which is why restraints are necessary.

I would believe it if I hadn’t heard it a million times. Or claim that you would have won if it was a “good” map. You’re not the only one, I’ve heard (including myself) a lot of forgers blame the map immediately after dying sometimes. Good example; Seth running straight down some of the maps in the contest dying then complaining. Like come on man, you are a judge for a contest. Because of the false reads made it influenced the worth of the map.  
 

I think we need to define what “abuse” is to be honest. How long I can stand in one position? A cycle of geometry I can run around without “BOLD” threat? A spot I can challenge over and over and just dip out? Abuse isn’t that clear cut believe it or not. To some pros when someone is “abusing geometry” they might laugh and disagree and easily be able to counter it. To others it might seem like the most unfair thing in the world. 

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1 hour ago, Box_Hoes said:

I would believe it if I hadn’t heard it a million times. Or claim that you would have won if it was a “good” map. You’re not the only one, I’ve heard (including myself) a lot of forgers blame the map immediately after dying sometimes. Good example; Seth running straight down some of the maps in the contest dying then complaining. Like come on man, you are a judge for a contest. Because of the false reads made it influenced the worth of the map.  
 

I think we need to define what “abuse” is to be honest. How long I can stand in one position? A cycle of geometry I can run around without “BOLD” threat? A spot I can challenge over and over and just dip out? Abuse isn’t that clear cut believe it or not. To some pros when someone is “abusing geometry” they might laugh and disagree and easily be able to counter it. To others it might seem like the most unfair thing in the world. 

I think the only time I've ever actually said that to you was about multi and I when we were testing maps, because that was sort of our strategy. He would try things and I would try to counter, and generally being the more mechanically skilled player than would help us measure whether or not something was broken. I told you that laughing and really didn't expect you to remember it. But past that, no I don't blame the map when we lose customs, come on man that's just not true. You don't hear me say "we would've won if that map didn't suck" like that's just not how I talk, at least not seriously, and if you're taking jokes in an xbox live party to heart then you need to chill my dude. Oh, and taking to heart what ANYONE says right after losing a game and  remembering that when you form opinions about them is kinda... kinda not okay.. We all get mad and say stuff, but those comments don't carry the same weight as a measured discussion and you know that, so stop saying "he said she said" when we're talking about the 3 seconds after a heated game of competitive Halo.

 

Abuse is taking advantage of a mechanic or map in a way that violates the other persons agency or eclipses their ability to do something about it. Like all that spawn killing in black ops 4 lol

 

And whether or not something is even technically possible to overcome isn't even the point. As long as something is easy enough to abuse then people will. Just because a perfectly coordinated team of pros could maybe break out of a spawn trap in black ops doesn't mean it's not a problem. And again, stop illuding to competitive players as if they are on this other planeof existence that I can't comprehend. Ya know, speaking of wow, I've parsed (statistical ranking based on performance) in the top 200 several times, and I know that's wow and not a shooter, but like, I'm not a potatoe who can't understand decision making. You don't know complexity until you try to comprehend a game like that, so just stop trying to play this off like I just don't have the mental capacity to see what you see.

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15 minutes ago, Westin said:

I think the only time I've ever actually said that to you was about multi and I when we were testing maps, because that was sort of our strategy. He would try things and I would try to counter, and generally being the more mechanically skilled player than would help us measure whether or not something was broken. I told you that laughing and really didn't expect you to remember it. But past that, no I don't blame the map when we lose customs, come on man that's just not true. You've never heard me say "we would've won if that map didn't suck" like that's just not how I talk.

 

Oh, and taking to heart what ANYONE says right after losing a game and remembering that when you form opinions about them is kinda... kinda not okay.. We all get mad and say stuff, but those comments don't carry the same weight as a measured discussion and you know that, so stop saying "he said she said" when we're talking about the 3 seconds after a heated game of competitive Halo.

 

Abuse is taking advantage of a mechanic or map in a way that violates the other persons agency. Like all that spawn killing in black ops 4 lol

 

And whether or not something is even technically possible to overcome isn't even the point. As long as something is easy enough to abuse then people will. Just because a perfectly coordinated team pros could maybe break out of a spawn trap in black ops doesn't mean it's not a problem.

I’m not going to bring up the examples for the sake of it being on a public forum but we are all guilty, not singling you out. And that’s not the example I’m talking about. But for sure man fair enough, I just know everyone has been there at one point. I value those 3 seconds after a game because people tend usually not to hold back as much rather than say nothing for the sake of keeping an even keel. 
 

I mean technically shooting or getting shot at is abusive but I’m not going to be a dog. I know what you’re getting at. Wouldn’t abuse be something playing the way that the designer didn’t intend?

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8 minutes ago, Box_Hoes said:

I’m not going to bring up the examples for the sake of it being on a public forum but we are all guilty, not singling you out. And that’s not the example I’m talking about. But for sure man fair enough, I just know everyone has been there at one point. I value those 3 seconds after a game because people tend usually not to hold back as much rather than say nothing for the sake of keeping an even keel. 
 

I mean technically shooting or getting shot at is abusive but I’m not going to be a dog. I know what you’re getting at. Wouldn’t abuse be something playing the way that the designer didn’t intend?

I'm positive I've said stupid things but like - we all have - and none of us want to blackmail eachother based on every sentence ever uttered on xbox at 2 am. That's completely different than if you were to ask me what I believe about my arguments and got a real, thought out response, which has bascially never happened.

 

Why would getting shot at eclipse my ability to react? And no I think we want gameplay to extend beyond what designers intend, that's awesome and one of the best parts of Halo

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Icy you can call me dog all you want but I’m actually passionate about this and I find the topic very interesting. So from now on I’ll keep all my thoughts inside my head and we can continue to talk about words instead. Or what would be really cool is if we could actually have set examples of geometric arrangements on maps and have a discussion of whether or not the space is balanced. I don’t think a lot of people disagree with the principles of what makes a good map, but rather the translation of those principles into geometry become very confusing and easy to misinterpret. Or being unaware of certain consequences geometry can provide. That’s worded like shit but I hope my point is clear 

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25 minutes ago, Box_Hoes said:

Icy you can call me dog all you want but I’m actually passionate about this and I find the topic very interesting. So from now on I’ll keep all my thoughts inside my head and we can continue to talk about words instead. Or what would be really cool is if we could actually have set examples of geometric arrangements on maps and have a discussion of whether or not the space is balanced. I don’t think a lot of people disagree with the principles of what makes a good map, but rather the translation of those principles into geometry become very confusing and easy to misinterpret. Or being unaware of certain consequences geometry can provide. That’s worded like shit but I hope my point is clear 


I didn’t call you DOG!!!!!!

I like that there’s some design talk going on, keep at it

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Being incapable of sharing an understanding of a principle/skill through a lack of experience or cognitive ability.

 

Is there a word for that? Really been searching for it after a discussion I had over a work related thing and now the same here within your discussion. 

 

Unrelated but Einstein had a really interesting response pertaining to the concept of measuring the speed of light that really mirrored discussion that happens here all the time. It was very interesting to me because it really displayed the level of thought you guys put into this, when it's arguably so much less meaningful than what it could be directed at. 

Edited by no god anywhere
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42 minutes ago, no god anywhere said:

Being incapapable of sharing an understanding of a principle/skill through a lack of experience or cognitive ability.

 

Is there a word for that? Really been searching for it after a discussion I had over a work related thing and now the same here within your discussion. 

 

Unrelated but Einstein had a really interesting response pertaining to the concept of measuring the speed of light that really mirrored discussion that happens here all the time. It was very interesting to me because it really displayed the level of thought you guys put into this, when it's arguably so much less meaningful than what it could be directed at. 

A great one is how we as a species have only ever measured the two-way speed of light and never the one-way speed of light. Like, theoretically, light could travel much slower in one direction and near instantaneously in the other and, for now, we have no way to neither prove nor disprove it. Not sure if that was Einstein, though.

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3 hours ago, no god anywhere said:

Being incapapable of sharing an understanding of a principle/skill through a lack of experience or cognitive ability.

 

Is there a word for that? Really been searching for it after a discussion I had over a work related thing and now the same here within your discussion. 

 

Unrelated but Einstein had a really interesting response pertaining to the concept of measuring the speed of light that really mirrored discussion that happens here all the time. It was very interesting to me because it really displayed the level of thought you guys put into this, when it's arguably so much less meaningful than what it could be directed at. 

Funnily enough when you google what you wrote there word for word. The topics that pop up are about moral hypocrisy and early child cognitive development  with the latter containing a number of tidbits people talk about when "mental skills" are brought up. Found that humorous

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so i started learning CORE today, its like roblox but with a universal fortnite aesthetic across all the games, and you can mix and match the animations/ fx/ functions and customise the settings to define your game type. Very simple stuff, but i can see creative forgers taking this very far and creating unique stuff. 

 

its perfect for me because i don't want to do all the extra work just to make a game in unreal or unity, i can just kit bash and tweak the assets and settings available to me

 

just watch CORE games get picked up by microsoft and put on game pass to compete with playstations dreams, im calling it now

Edited by Soldat Du Christ

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8 hours ago, no god anywhere said:

Being incapable of sharing an understanding of a principle/skill through a lack of experience or cognitive ability.

 

Is there a word for that?

Ignorance.  

That word has very negative connotations to most people though.

 

4 hours ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

so i started learning CORE today, its like roblox but with a universal fortnite aesthetic across all the games, and you can mix and match the animations/ fx/ functions and customise the settings to define your game type. Very simple stuff, but i can see creative forgers taking this very far and creating unique stuff. 

 

its perfect for me because i don't want to do all the extra work just to make a game in unreal or unity, i can just kit bash and tweak the assets and settings available to me

 

just watch CORE games get picked up by microsoft and put on game pass to compete with playstations dreams, im calling it now

If a person were going to ONLY focus on either level design or game design, they would be far better off investing time in the more complex (and more capable) tools that are out there.

Having said that, based upon my very minimal experience with it I'd say that it has a lot of potential.  It's obviously supposed to take a lot of really complex tools and make them simple and accessible, and it does this fairly well.  I like the fact that anyone can create and publish a game, and potential have a LOT of people play it.  Good way to get some recognition for your work if you're good enough.

 

 

 

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