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Halo Infinite discussion thread: https://www.nextleveldesign.org/index.php?/forums/topic/575-halo-infinite/

 

 

For an explanation: https://www.nextleveldesign.org/index.php?/forums/topic/575-halo-infinite/&do=findComment&comment=9290

2 hours ago, a Chunk said:

I am planning to make a thread for Halo Infinite discussion, and moving relevant posts there.

I know we are all used to WAYWO being a free for all, and I'm fine with the conversation moving in different directions, but anything that could generate significant discussion is going to be moved/spun off into a separate thread. The primary focus of WAYWO should be one what we are actually working on, while discussion about particular games should/will go in a thread dedicated to that game (ie: Dark Souls).

 

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Just did a site upgrade. Ran into a problem and we were down for around 15 minutes.  Back up and running now.

Most obvious change I see is in how the user profile next to posts is displaying. 

- Name and avatar are moved to the far left

- Ranks are reset (we are all Newbie's)

- There's a big ass Rank Sticker  🤮

 

I knew the ranks would be changing because I was given the option to keep the old ranks or incorporate the new ranking system which has some additional options built into it.  Didn't realize those ugly stickers would be there.  I'll try to dig into this over the coming week or so and get things back to looking 'normal'.

 

If anyone notices any other oddities or bugs, please let me know.

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I've hacked the system.  Created a tiny image for the Newbie Rank that blends in with the background color.  Pretty stupid that I can't just turn off images for it...

 

Seems that having everything pushed to the left side is something specific to the Acme theme, as it's not doing that on any other theme.

 

Everything else seems mostly okay for now...

 

 

Edit: Got the user profiles centered again by adjusting the padding...I guess (it's the only thing I changed, lol)

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FYI, if anyone is interested, there is now an option to view the main forum index in a Grid View.

image.png.fb1298363069c29965cd93edd32dc795.png

 

We should have the capability of assigning images to each section, but I haven't had a chance to dig into that yet.

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I feel comfortable saying that most level designers design FPS maps as pleasure centered entertainment consumables. This aspect of the products goal, shape what is valued in there design. 

 

So this had me thinking.... 
 

What if designers were to design fps maps with pleasure/entertainment not being a goal whatsoever, but as pure mental and mechanical skill development and enrichment tools?  

 

What would these designs look like, and how might they differ from an fps map designed for entertainment? 

 

I find it quite interesting how players tend to get frustrated with certain aspects of design that might actually make them better FPS players, but instead of adapting and learning from these design aspects, they instead reject it and call it un fun, unfair ,lacking integrity, value, unbalanced etc.  

 

How would some of those same elements that cause player frustration be evaluated if we evaluated them from a non entertainment standpoint? 

 

@Soldat Du Christ

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, SaltyKoalaBear said:

I feel comfortable saying that most level designers design FPS maps as pleasure centered entertainment consumables. This aspect of the products goal, shape what is valued in there design. 

 

So this had me thinking.... 
 

What if designers were to design fps maps with pleasure/entertainment not being a goal whatsoever, but as pure mental and mechanical skill development and enrichment tools?  

 

What would these designs look like, and how might they differ from an fps map designed for entertainment? 

 

I find it quite interesting how players tend to get frustrated with certain aspects of design that might actually make them better FPS players, but instead of adapting and learning from these design aspects, they instead reject it and call it un fun, unfair ,lacking integrity, value, unbalanced etc.  

 

How would some of those same elements that cause player frustration be evaluated if we evaluated them from a non entertainment standpoint? 

 

@Soldat Du Christ

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

i'm confused, the skill development is part of the entertainment, i'm not sure i understand your wording

1260918535_Forgemapsthumbnail.thumb.png.a0054255c7c5aba3a52c3cef60b4b815.png

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59 minutes ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

i'm confused, the skill development is part of the entertainment, i'm not sure i understand your wording

Sure, that can be part of it, but the two aren't mutually exclusive. 

 

Entertainment doesn't just equal skill development and skill development isn't always entertaining. 

 

There are many developmental activities that by a vast majority wouldn't be categorized as "pleasure centric entertainment" aka "fun" , such as physical therapy or learning challenging math curriculum for example. 

 

Imagine there is a school for professional FPS gaming. The students that enroll in the program only wish to improve there fps skills. They don't care about being entertained while doing so, however that being a side effect in some cases isn't ruled out.  

 

You as a level designer are tasked with designing fps levels as curriculum for there courses.  It's your goal to create levels that facilitate the growth of the students fps skills in the most effective way possible.

 

 Do you believe your levels created as educational/developmental/enrichment tools would differ from a level you might design for a fps game being primarily used for entertainment (fun) ?  If so, what are some differences we might see between them if any?

 

 

 

 

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Salty, I enjoy your perspective.  Especially enjoy that you think for yourself and often come at things from a unique point of view.  Really wish you would just leave out the lightly veiled shots at others.  It makes me not want to engage in discussion, and it's really unnecessary.

 

To give a short answer even though you didn't ask me...  I wouldn't design maps for that - I would design standalone scenarios that force players into the desired situations.  What I think of as a 'map' requires balancing that would be unneeded in a scenario like this, so designing a full map would seem to be overkill and possibly a bit self-indulgent. 

 

What is it about level designers that you think would qualify them to even determine what skills would need to be developed to make an FPS player better?  Of course there are obvious ones, but much of what would need to be trained would be far beyond what most designers could recognize and understand, much less develop.  I feel like this is why esports teams have coaches and not level designers.

 

Now if you're suggesting that there might be something to be learned by intentionally designing levels that force players into situations that are uncomfortable or unintuitive, and that there might be a corresponding benefit to players that can 'suffer' through the experience, learning to adopt new strategies and ways of thinking and acting as a result, I can be on board with that.

 

But I also don't think it's necessary.  Each person does this (design levels and play FPS games) for different reasons, and for many something like that wouldn't align with their reasons, and so it would probably not be fruitful. 

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1 hour ago, a Chunk said:

What is it about level designers that you think would qualify them to even determine what skills would need to be developed to make an FPS player better?  Of course there are obvious ones, but much of what would need to be trained would be far beyond what most designers could recognize and understand, much less develop.  I feel like this is why esports teams have coaches and not level designers.

 

Thanks for the response chunk, in particular this part of your response is very intriguing too me. 

 

I don't think all level designers have the skill to determine what skills would help an fps player improve there game, or how to promote those skills through design, but I do believe every level designer should at the very least try to understand,  hypothesis and experiment  towards the pursuit of this knowledge. However a level designer that claims to have mastery over there craft, should absolutely be able to indentify those skills and be able to design to develop them. 

 

Do you think it possible that level designers could greatly improve at there craft if they studied or took on the role of an fps coach?  Do you think fps coaches might benefit from designing there own fps level's?   

 

What could these two camps learn from each other? 

 

Our maps can only be intentionally designed to the extent of our understanding, therefore the more we understand the more intent we can design with. Which is the main pillar of design. Intent. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, SaltyKoalaBear said:

Sure, that can be part of it, but the two aren't mutually exclusive. 

 

Entertainment doesn't just equal skill development and skill development isn't always entertaining. 

 

There are many developmental activities that by a vast majority wouldn't be categorized as "pleasure centric entertainment" aka "fun" , such as physical therapy or learning challenging math curriculum for example. 

 

Imagine there is a school for professional FPS gaming. The students that enroll in the program only wish to improve there fps skills. They don't care about being entertained while doing so, however that being a side effect in some cases isn't ruled out.  

 

You as a level designer are tasked with designing fps levels as curriculum for there courses.  It's your goal to create levels that facilitate the growth of the students fps skills in the most effective way possible.

 

 Do you believe your levels created as educational/developmental/enrichment tools would differ from a level you might design for a fps game being primarily used for entertainment (fun) ?  If so, what are some differences we might see between them if any?

 

 

 

 

oh i see, interesting, right away i could see myself not bothering with incorporating thematic gameplay/ narrative set pieces, as those are usually harder to incorporate with the game logic.. instead i would just use colors and visual noise for readability and all the geometry would be used to exercise skills

1260918535_Forgemapsthumbnail.thumb.png.a0054255c7c5aba3a52c3cef60b4b815.png

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6 hours ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

my br is trash but i'm crafty with my  positioning 😁 

 

 

 

 

 

you shouldve died twice in that clip. Chasing dual spiker dude, and that nade that didn't kill you 😘

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