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I can recognize the value and integrity in the macro, but it's clear that there are still many of designers who are unable, or unwilling, to recognize the value and integrity in the micro. Could it be because  it requires a level of focus and attention to nuanced detail  many are incapable of or simply unwilling to give? 

 

 

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Cod tech 3 lane rainbow six maps are a lot of fun in halo 5. Watching Bound play plaza is actually insane both because of how much surface area there is to reposition quickly/ open and close sight lines, and traverse creatively/ extremely fast through the environment. It definitely offers the potential for a ton of individual empowerment. 
 

Depending on how complex macro maps can be, they are definitely more BOLD in what they are doing and clear in the amount of decisions you can make. One thing macro maps do that micro cant do is exponentially increase the number of compartments in a given space without sacrificing pace. I would actually like to word it “less likely” to impact pace. Not that micro is redundant but macro can be more overall efficient and less likely to have dead space. (Touch on this later)
 

Also you talk about nuanced technical depth “footwork”. I think as far as keeping up with your opponent and quick decision making goes high density stuff is pretty unmatched (some might say it bleeds over to just being reactive which I can understand.) I don’t mean it in a superior way, micro maps are much more capable of  exceeding what @icyhotspartin  termed “the crow limit.” 
 

Not all macro maps are bold and can have insane mental depth. Odyssey/by Multi is an example of how big/number of compartments you can have on a map, and the methods how it is approached design wise is less likely to impact pace because of how the spaces are designed. If you were to put an immense amount of micro on the map pacing would likely suffer unless you are extremely careful/conscious (experienced) which leads to the next point. 
 

When using micro you have to be extremely conscious of the geometry’s effects because they can heavily ripple through all the maps logical relationships fairly quickly/significantly. Hard checks can be completely negated with the addition of one corner that causes a player to have rotate extremely far and in dangerous sight lines to clear, making the original Intended space lack function. 


Lastly, what I personally find value from in macro is the nuance of negative space between pathways and mental capabilities of using timing to capitalize on situations. You are all going to laugh at me but Truth in h5 is disgusting to watch/play at a high level. Because of how stripped down the map is, everything is focused on the nuance of moving through choke points which allows that mental timer inside your head to calculate appropriate times to push and predict what will happen. The difference here is knowing when you commit to the decision of moving through negative space/chokepoint there isn’t geometry readily available to be manipulated by said player making that decision much more impactful depending on the circumstances. Micro can potentially give that player who made a decision to move off who shouldn’t have another chance to reset his shields or force his opponent in the open long enough to be melted elsewhere. HOWEVER, it’s 2 way street because now the other player should have geometry readily available to his disposal…
 

Im Losing my Train of thought honestly but there is more I have to say about this topic because it’s really interesting to me and I love both styles of maps. I would say designing for micro is a much more delicate process and you should be aware of how easily you can effect the overall logical relationships on said map. I like @icyhotspartin term crow limit because that can fall into a large player base who aren’t great at the game. Casuals can’t manipulate geometry well, so when you design for it from the get go, they might be blind to various ways to succeed as the geometry requires a higher level of understanding. This can lead to feeling a map is unfair when playing better players. 
 

ALSO I MEANT TO ASK: Grenades on stairs???? What do you guys think, does it even make sense? 
 

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Grenades bouncing off stairs like a flat ramp is a gameplay oriented decision, not a realism one.

 

Halo 3's geo got so sophisticated that banking grenades off walls and floors for half of the maps was a headache. Some maps had large amounts of natural terrain, which sucked the grenade into the dirt or snow. I believe Reach was where they started putting flat blockers on stairs, and Halo 4 & onward is when they made grenades bounce no matter what.

 

Doesn't make sense, but it make frags more consistent.

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3 hours ago, Box_Hoes said:

Grenades on stairs???? What do you guys think, does it even make sense? 

If you want multi directional grenade bounces, use ramps.  If you want uni directional grenade bounces, use stairs.  I understand there are times when the rules need to be bent but you liking the stair aesthetic more isn’t one of them.  Collision should be accurately reflected through geometry.  
 

When combined with a ‘drop weapon’ mechanic, stairs allow for unique attacks:  

 

 

Edited by Boyo
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1 hour ago, Boyo said:

If you want multi directional grenade bounces, use ramps.  If you want uni directional grenade bounces, use stairs.  I understand there are times when the rules need to be bent but you liking the stair aesthetic more isn’t one of them.  Collision should be accurately reflected through geometry.  

Agreed

I don't like having geo that doesn't match the collision, it hurts the brain

Even invis barriers on the outside and top of maps is too much for me

Death barriers are another story, though

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funny you guys are mentioning this cause i was gonna do a root ridden forest floor leading to the hole in my green area

 

of course ill still probably do it.... personally i think its a matter of getting used to it. yeah nades bounce up stairs in halo 3 and that can be disorienting....

 

but all games have rules and part of gaming is learning those rules.l for the game. halo is more about gameplay so nades will always bounce up stairs. like wise halo has never had doors either. interactable doors i mean. turf and zanzibar are the only two that come to mind. and theyre not so much doors as they are entire moveable walls.

 

so i dont mind halo doing stuff like that for gameplay  keeps the sandbox flowing.  its just one of those things ppl associate with halo. bigger higher jumps, and nades that bounce up stairs.

 

pc is the first time i saw doors in mp with counterstrike. doors would be so cancer in halo....

 

and oh no what have i done. boyo please dont ask how doors "could be made to better halo sandbox?"

22683629-plenty-of-tree-roots-goes-up-on-the-ground-in-the-forest.jpg.6bda10d8a7e2d4ad3d61ce7d515c724b.jpg

 

 

 

Edited by JB_
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Knockflockers are doors you can activate using your alternate fire rate on your BR. Rather than worry about maps having to be well thought out and balanced,  when players are camping in doorways you can aim lock on to the door using your alt fire and shoot for the door to fling them out into the map for camping. Notice how rather than having to fix level design or waste a button on the controller I was able to introduce something innovative and fresh that keeps halo halo.

 

 

 

 

wOw LoOk At mE

Edited by Box_Hoes
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3 hours ago, Boyo said:

When combined with a ‘drop weapon’ mechanic, stairs allow for unique attacks:  

 

 

What is preventing this mechanic from working on a slope? Using physics to create this absurd mechanic would force level designers to account for it, most likely resulting in wonky looking stairs. It would be far more effective to simply code in the bouncing and not care about the surface normals when checking velocity. Oh, and it's a stupid mechanic that only works in silly games, thus the sloped hitbox works fine. The only example I can think of for making stairs have a stair hitboxes is for the fuel rod cannon, and I couldn't care less to enforce a no-bounce on that thing, never liked it on my maps anyways.

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17 minutes ago, JB_ said:

all games have rules and part of gaming is learning those rules

Obeying natural rules is what allows for the fantastical elements to be introduced.  You’re effectively telling the player that they can’t trust any of reality’s rules to apply here (when geometry doesn’t match collision).  

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Every element of a game can and should be contextualized. We never see it taken that far simply because it means more work, but everything can make sense with some effort. Without giving any of our own ideas away, think about something like the turrets on snowbound, which introduce a reason for the player do die beyond map limits. The same idea can be applied to geometry, including stairs. If you have a goal, you can find a way to reach it that matches what the player will assume just by looking at the map

 

Also, Micro and macro are one and the same, and the only way to really understand where to apply high/low density in your map is to look at everything as a curve, not as a binary system. It's helps our understanding to compartmentalize like that, but only at first.

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2 hours ago, Westin said:

Every element of a game can and should be contextualized. We never see it taken that far simply because it means more work, but everything can make sense with some effort. Without giving any of our own ideas away, think about something like the turrets on snowbound, which introduce a reason for the player do die beyond map limits. The same idea can be applied to geometry, including stairs. If you have a goal, you can find a way to reach it that matches what the player will assume just by looking at the map

 

Also, Micro and macro are one and the same, and the only way to really understand where to apply high/low density in your map is to look at everything as a curve, not as a binary system. It's helps our understanding to compartmentalize like that, but only at first.

Maybe Micro vs Macro was the wrong term to use If you came to that conclusion. There is definitely a mathematical difference between high density geometry relative to total interactive surface area  and player size/speed vs low density geometry relative to total interactive surface area and player size/speed.  

 

Simply scaling a map up or down, and then comparing the differences between the two in gameplay is proof of this concept. I'm guessing you just misunderstood my post. 

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4 hours ago, Westin said:

Every element of a game can and should be contextualized. We never see it taken that far simply because it means more work, but everything can make sense with some effort. Without giving any of our own ideas away, think about something like the turrets on snowbound, which introduce a reason for the player do die beyond map limits. The same idea can be applied to geometry, including stairs. If you have a goal, you can find a way to reach it that matches what the player will assume just by looking at the map

 

Also, Micro and macro are one and the same, and the only way to really understand where to apply high/low density in your map is to look at everything as a curve, not as a binary system. It's helps our understanding to compartmentalize like that, but only at first.

You understand that scale is an artistic/gameplay choice  that will control how the gameplay manifests itself and thus define the identity of the gameplay itself?

 

If I make arcanum 2x as big or 2x as small but keep the player attributes the same (size of player model/speed of player/range of gun's, fov etc) it's going to drastically change how the gameplay and logical relationships on the map work/ manifest themselves? 

 

It's almost like tempo in music, just changing the tempo of a song alone completely changes it's artistic identity even though all the notes are still the same.  

 

 

Also, @MultiLockOn arcanum is probably one of the most  pace manipulative maps I have ever played when you remove power weapons/pickups. If you happen to gain the lead the strength of the key becomes in using it primarily for defense and not offense. In fact you get punished for using it offensively as you are actively burning it's usage, instead of gaining the most from it by using it as little as possible and wasting the other teams time by making them split to approach you. Then after wasting as much of there time as possible, you use it with your teammate to escape and double team the isolated player on the opposing team trying to pinch. Powerups/pickups actually make the key work offensively, without them it is one of the most abuseable defensive elements I have ever seen on a map..

 

Talk about making all the right choices and invalidating them with one key usage, arcanum no weapons is the king of this. Ironically, I enjoy the map MORE with no power weapons as I truly enjoy trying to break such lopsided control. Guess I'm just an fps machoist 😂

 

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11 hours ago, SaltyKoalaBear said:

Also, @MultiLockOn arcanum is probably one of the most  pace manipulative maps I have ever played when you remove power weapons/pickups. If you happen to gain the lead the strength of the key becomes in using it primarily for defense and not offense. In fact you get punished for using it offensively as you are actively burning it's usage, instead of gaining the most from it by using it as little as possible and wasting the other teams time by making them split to approach you. Then after wasting as much of there time as possible, you use it with your teammate to escape and double team the isolated player on the opposing team trying to pinch. Powerups/pickups actually make the key work offensively, without them it is one of the most abuseable defensive elements I have ever seen on a map..

 

Talk about making all the right choices and invalidating them with one key usage, arcanum no weapons is the king of this. Ironically, I enjoy the map MORE with no power weapons as I truly enjoy trying to break such lopsided control. Guess I'm just an fps machoist 😂

Do you think the mechanic would be better balanced if only the key holder could access the shortcuts?  

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3 hours ago, Boyo said:

Do you think the mechanic would be better balanced if only the key holder could access the shortcuts?  

It's possible yes. The map is balanced fine when the powerweapons/pickups are on it because you can't use the key nearly as defensively.  With only the key as the powerup the map just plays much different. If your behind, you most certainly will be rewarded for using the key offensively. However if you manage to control the key in the lead (easier said then done) you are basically only encouraged to use it defensively and ONLY if you absolutely need too as not using it means denying the other team of a chance to use it. The whole game devolves into seeing how much of the other teams time you can waste by forcing them to split and doubling teaming a split player, or having both the key holder and his team mate go through a door if you get double pushed and make the two pushing players go ALL the way back around to re push... But then you just go back through the door and force them to rinse and repeat. It's quite comical actually. 

 

  Like I said, I actually really enjoy the map that way but I know it may not be everyone's cup of tea. With good teamwork and patience you can overcome it, we had some very exciting games battling over the key trying to be the team to control it in the lead. 

 

 

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