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I've been thinking about video games as a creative outlet and means of delivering experience.... i really do think it is the most superior art form because of how mutli disciplinary and versitile it is. But obviously that comes with the fact that they are very time consuming to create, even on the small scale. On top of that the sheer amount of responsability and maturity you need to have to run a project like that, i have a hard enough time just taking care of basic things like car up-keep or paying my taxes. I'm not sure if i have it in me to persue the AAA space like i once dreamed of, at least for right now i need to take my talents and apply them to a medium where i can start and finish a project in a practical time frame. I'm thinking about writing, like a tolkien/ CS luis world building series. That would be alot of fun

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4 hours ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

I've been thinking about video games as a creative outlet and means of delivering experience.... i really do think it is the most superior art form because of how mutli disciplinary and versitile it is. But obviously that comes with the fact that they are very time consuming to create, even on the small scale. On top of that the sheer amount of responsability and maturity you need to have to run a project like that, i have a hard enough time just taking care of basic things like car up-keep or paying my taxes. I'm not sure if i have it in me to persue the AAA space like i once dreamed of, at least for right now i need to take my talents and apply them to a medium where i can start and finish a project in a practical time frame. I'm thinking about writing, like a tolkien/ CS luis world building series. That would be alot of fun

The Witcher and Dark Souls were life altering. Everytime I look at my firelink shrine wallpaper and think on it, I almost want to cry. That probably sounds stupid to anyone who hsan't played DS1, but to anyone who has, I'm confident you know the exact feeling.

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1 hour ago, purely fat said:

As someone who writes get ready to spend a good 5 to 10 years building that world. World building is one of ,if not the most time consuming thing, if you want it done right. 

Good world building is one part of a well designed game, the game of which has many more disciplines you need to account for. 

 

Well designed video games are monsters, the ones i have in mind are well designed on all angles, full experiences. By comparison writing is easy

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2 hours ago, Westin said:

The Witcher and Dark Souls were life altering. Everytime I look at my firelink shrine wallpaper and think on it, I almost want to cry. That probably sounds stupid to anyone who hsan't played DS1, but to anyone who has, I'm confident you know the exact feeling.

I think the fanfare surrounding ds is really interesting, but i don't relate. I see it as a narritive driven game, with the mechanics serving that and not being very stimulating by themselves. But i do enjoy the narritive experience it provides, i feel nostalgic thinking back to the first time i carved my way through undead burg, or progressing through darkroot basin with nga and fighting sif the wolf with him. The feelings you get when progressing throught the world are very powerful, my favorite of which was blightown... amazing feeling of oppression and dread

 

I think there are kernals of really cool stories hidden within the game that you can find on youtube, like the sif/ artorias relationship and stuff like that. But overall it feels like the world building and internal consistency isn't that great, but is masked by its indirect means of delivery. The fanfare seems to be content to fill in the gaps and inconsistencies with speculation and theories, i would perfer if you could go to dukes archives and learn more about the world their instead of having to dig through wiki or reddit.

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3 hours ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

I think the fanfare surrounding ds is really interesting, but i don't relate. I see it as a narritive driven game, with the mechanics serving that and not being very stimulating by themselves. But i do enjoy the narritive experience it provides, i feel nostalgic thinking back to the first time i carved my way through undead burg, or progressing through darkroot basin with nga and fighting sif the wolf with him. The feelings you get when progressing throught the world are very powerful, my favorite of which was blightown... amazing feeling of oppression and dread

 

I think there are kernals of really cool stories hidden within the game that you can find on youtube, like the sif/ artorias relationship and stuff like that. But overall it feels like the world building and internal consistency isn't that great, but is masked by its indirect means of delivery. The fanfare seems to be content to fill in the gaps and inconsistencies with speculation and theories, i would perfer if you could go to dukes archives and learn more about the world their instead of having to dig through wiki or reddit.

no

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14 hours ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

I think the fanfare surrounding ds is really interesting, but i don't relate. I see it as a narritive driven game, with the mechanics serving that and not being very stimulating by themselves. But i do enjoy the narritive experience it provides, i feel nostalgic thinking back to the first time i carved my way through undead burg, or progressing through darkroot basin with nga and fighting sif the wolf with him. The feelings you get when progressing throught the world are very powerful, my favorite of which was blightown... amazing feeling of oppression and dread

 

I think there are kernals of really cool stories hidden within the game that you can find on youtube, like the sif/ artorias relationship and stuff like that. But overall it feels like the world building and internal consistency isn't that great, but is masked by its indirect means of delivery. The fanfare seems to be content to fill in the gaps and inconsistencies with speculation and theories, i would perfer if you could go to dukes archives and learn more about the world their instead of having to dig through wiki or reddit.

I think Westin is referring to the physical world building and you're talking about the story. 

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Soldat I think you fail to realize how much goes into great world building. I know Tolkien put decades of his life into the Silmarillion and LOTR. Same can be said of Frank Herbert. Shit Frank Herbert set up a a writing career for his son by having so much of the world flushed out.
Tolkien invented a stinking language.

 

There is no game ever to reach the scope of the greatest literature in history. In fact most games are just derivative pop culture driven narratives that are often times soulless or not flushed out at all and completely rely on the players ability to infer their is something more.

No game explores all 5 senses the way books can. (eating simulator waiting room).  Games are just interactive masturbatory releases for people. Books can do this while also being thought provoking in more ways due to their ability to be descriptive to a much greater degree.

I think there are games that do parts of great world building well but these games typically take great influence from pre-established norms in a sub-genre rather than trying to be their own unique world with it's own unique hierarchy. They just piggy-back off of what was done before with their own edgy twist.

 

Seriously dude, read a book.

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4 hours ago, MultiLockOn said:

I think Westin is referring to the physical world building and you're talking about the story. 

He actually wasn't talking about anything specific, only saying how the game makes him feel. I was only commenting on that phenomena, how ds makes people feel and the fanfare surrounding it, and how i don't relate to the infatuation along with my reasons why

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4 hours ago, purely fat said:

Soldat I think you fail to realize how much goes into great world building. I know Tolkien put decades of his life into the Silmarillion and LOTR. Same can be said of Frank Herbert. Shit Frank Herbert set up a a writing career for his son by having so much of the world flushed out.
Tolkien invented a stinking language.

 

There is no game ever to reach the scope of the greatest literature in history. In fact most games are just derivative pop culture driven narratives that are often times soulless or not flushed out at all and completely rely on the players ability to infer their is something more.

No game explores all 5 senses the way books can. (eating simulator waiting room).  Games are just interactive masturbatory releases for people. Books can do this while also being thought provoking in more ways due to their ability to be descriptive to a much greater degree.

I think there are games that do parts of great world building well but these games typically take great influence from pre-established norms in a sub-genre rather than trying to be their own unique world with it's own unique hierarchy. They just piggy-back off of what was done before with their own edgy twist.

 

Seriously dude, read a book.

You are assuming i haven't read  good books and that i don't already know what you are talking about. Time doesn't always translate into quality, nor does it require 5-10 years to produce quality,  there are several more important variables that will determine that. Tolkien didn't just invent a language, lots of people do that, he created an etymological hierarchy with branches styles... at some point i believe he even said it became too complex and never finished it. If you ask me, i think that world building indulgences like that is going way too far, it's simply unnecessary and doesn't add quality to the experience, just more stuff.

 

I agree with your second point about the current state of games. What i have in mind when envisioning a game of my own was to take the highest standards of literature along side the highest standards of level design, along side the highest standards of gameplay, etc... and incorporate them all into a game, so again, by COMPARISON it's easy just doing the world building side of things without all the other components.

 

A game that would be able to deliver that would be the superior art form, and fundamentally as a medium because it HAS that potential it IS the superior art Form. On your third point about no game exploring all 5 senses the way books can, that's a load of bullcrap. Have you ever heard of show don't tell? That's like most of Dark Souls for you, and you are never going to get that with books. Games are a waaaay better platform for delivering full experiences, your all smoked out bro

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Soldat you are missing the point. That research lead to them having great works. Them developing hierarchies was a result of them putting this effort forward into making sure every detail is covered. (This is coming from someone who has actually helped people create these type of elements in their story.) They do this so they don't write themselves into corners where contradictions can occur and to maintain the integrity of the world they created for the journey they wish to take the reader on.  

 

Soldat your view is very flat(about the nicest way I can put it). You are looking at these elements as excess fat when they are in fact the elements that lead to them creating these type of experiences and since it ends up creating worlds people love. That excess fat, the fluff, the unnecessary, becomes something that is wanted by the fans as it leads to greater understanding of what the writer was thinking and why characters and places are the way they are. 
 

I'm done. 

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12 hours ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

He actually wasn't talking about anything specific, only saying how the game makes him feel. I was only commenting on that phenomena, how ds makes people feel and the fanfare surrounding it, and how i don't relate to the infatuation along with my reasons why

My first instincts are actually to go against popular opinion. Whatever point you're trying to make is null. I don't like any game for its fanfare.

 

 

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16 hours ago, purely fat said:

Soldat you are missing the point. That research lead to them having great works. Them developing hierarchies was a result of them putting this effort forward into making sure every detail is covered. (This is coming from someone who has actually helped people create these type of elements in their story.) They do this so they don't write themselves into corners where contradictions can occur and to maintain the integrity of the world they created for the journey they wish to take the reader on.  

 

Soldat your view is very flat(about the nicest way I can put it). You are looking at these elements as excess fat when they are in fact the elements that lead to them creating these type of experiences and since it ends up creating worlds people love. That excess fat, the fluff, the unnecessary, becomes something that is wanted by the fans as it leads to greater understanding of what the writer was thinking and why characters and places are the way they are. 
 

I'm done. 

Your point "that their research led to great works" is irrelevent. If it worked for them then thats great. I am not downplaying the quality works of literature throughout history by saying it's easier to execute than equally quality game design. This all started because you called into question the measurement of difficulty between world building in literature, and world building in games. Of which the main discernable difference is that in game design you have even more layers to take into consideration when world building because it all has to be cohesive along side the lore.

 

If those branching dialects are simply a means of justifying or explaining something else in the lore, that is internal consistency and different than adding stuff for the sake of it. So you would be correct on that point, but you are WRONG that it requires 5-10 years to execute on good world building. And you are WRONG by reducing games to being "interactive masturbatory releases for people" especially when there are world building gems like mass effect(1)

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6 hours ago, Westin said:

My first instincts are actually to go against popular opinion. Whatever point you're trying to make is null. I don't like any game for its fanfare.

 

 

None of what i said was a comment on you in particular, you are not obligated to defend yourself and i don't know why icyhot assumed it was a debate or something. I was just venting my own thoughts about the dark souls phenomena because what you said compelled me to. I just find the whole thing interesting that is all

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