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3 hours ago, FatkidForger said:

For sure, but then is it the dragging mechanic thats got you more interested then, like the barnacles in halflife? Because those function in a similar way. Can you get out of the Wallmaster's grip? But I think there could be a cool plant like thing, kinda like devils snare from harry potter, you can get stuck in or pulled up to and you have to move a lot to be thrown into the adjacent room instead of strangled.

The dragging mechanics are interesting but aren’t specifically what I like here.  

 

What I like about the Wallmaster is the invisible influence he exerts over the map.  Anytime you’re near the perimeter, the threat of being snatched up looms over your head.  

 

Wallmaster takes something mundane, the wall, and makes it scary.  I like that.  It’s like the psycho shower scene; sometimes the unseen is scariest because it lets the imagination run wild.  

Edited by Boyo
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8 hours ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

We are working hard getting this game all polished up for you guys to play test

 

 

I understand this is a very early test build, but it looks like the level design takes a back seat in this build. It almost doesn't feel realvent at all due to how the attack/defend and movement mechanics work. 

 

In Halo 5 the map seems overall more utilitized and influential in the combat engagements versus this. I'm not sure if that was intentional or not... Was it?

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7 hours ago, SaltyKoalaBear said:

I understand this is a very early test build, but it looks like the level design takes a back seat in this build. It almost doesn't feel realvent at all due to how the attack/defend and movement mechanics work. 

 

In Halo 5 the map seems overall more utilitized and influential in the combat engagements versus this. I'm not sure if that was intentional or not... Was it?

no you def have a point there, if you are just talking about this footage we aren't really using the map to its fullest, mostly because he has no idea how to use the map and is more distracted by spawning walls constantly even though they aren't helping him, they can be destroyed by one hit from any projectile and there is a slight cool down after deploying one, so in face to face fights its not as spammy as it looks in the footage, still good if you can pop one off quick enough to block a strong attack though. And there was a bug in this build that made us spawn on our dead bodies which is why most of the fight takes place on one side... this was just meant to show of the current state of the game and the mechanics, and i would expect level design to be more integrated into the gameplay loop once i start doing 1v1s with no god anywhere

 

But looking further ahead than that, one of my goals is to not have to lean on level design as much as i've had to in the past, thats a luxury i'm very much wanting to embrace, the staring enchantment allows player to spawn walls/ ramps and subvert the level design to a large degree at the cost of revealing your location to the enemy (the sound effect)

 

But there are two other enchantments you can pick up on the map currently that don't have that same utility and when using them the level design becomes much more integrated

Edited by Soldat Du Christ

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okay it was pretty cool of 343 to show off the one thing I wanted to do...

 

 

add h2 maps to h3...

 

these are screens from the new season 8 video

 

 

starts off as blackout skybox, clearly halo 3... but then we see the Halo 2 PC map district!!!!!

e6be4c62cc3c6dcc1bf99bec090cc432.jpg129a684da6481d46f126781be5de033f.png

 

 

Edited by JB_
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54 minutes ago, JB_ said:

okay it was pretty cool of 343 to show off the one thing I wanted to do...

 

 

add h2 maps to h3...

 

these are screens from the new season 8 video

 

 

starts off as blackout skybox, clearly halo 3... but then we see the Halo 2 PC map district!!!!!

e6be4c62cc3c6dcc1bf99bec090cc432.jpg129a684da6481d46f126781be5de033f.png

 

 


Yah and how about those third person campaign modes 

 

too bad they added cartoony Skyrim armor to 3’s multiplayer, yikes 

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i forgot the timestamp but in this conversation JP talks about a good father figure as being one who sets the rules and parameters that creates the conditions for Proper play to take place... making it so you can leave behind much of the chaos and evil (not all) that distract us from the meaning of life, which i would say is what games are really good at doing, distilling all the depth and meaning of relationships down to something as simple as give and take interactions with others. I think we get so immersed in competitive games and the stimuli that we dont even realise whats actually going on, you getting immersed in ANOTHER HUMAN BEING(s)! Everything else is just the noise that facilitates that interaction

 

Goldmine of a video for designers

 

Edited by Soldat Du Christ

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6 hours ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

i forgot the timestamp but in this conversation JP talks about a good father figure as being one who sets the rules and parameters that creates the conditions for Proper play to take place... making it so you can leave behind much of the chaos and evil (not all) that distract us from the meaning of life, which i would say is what games are really good at doing, distilling all the depth and meaning of relationships down to something as simple as give and take interactions with others. I think we get so immersed in competitive games and the stimuli that we dont even realise whats actually going on, you getting immersed in ANOTHER HUMAN BEING(s)! Everything else is just the noise that facilitates that interaction

 

Goldmine of a video for designers

 

So basically 343 is my daddy? 😫

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On 10/11/2021 at 10:48 PM, Boyo said:

The dragging mechanics are interesting but aren’t specifically what I like here.  

 

What I like about the Wallmaster is the invisible influence he exerts over the map.  Anytime you’re near the perimeter, the threat of being snatched up looms over your head.  

 

Wallmaster takes something mundane, the wall, and makes it scary.  I like that.  It’s like the psycho shower scene; sometimes the unseen is scariest because it lets the imagination run wild.  

Ace, yaeh, tbh I had to watch a vid to figure out how they work cos I've never seen them in a zeldy game before. So let me reproach my harry potter reference then, kinda like the hedge maze in goblet of fire lol? Yeah so I think either wall or ceiling, my idea holds up, however, if we take it one step further, I think secret doors could be cool if you want in interaction where some gets surprised. The question would be how to successfully give it a unique addition to the meta. Obviously you could have people just walk up and it opens, but I feel like thats too plain, I do like the notion that both the receiving room occupant and merging player are both somehow forced into this conflict. I think maybe having a poltergeist you can't see that roams around. Maybe you can hear it if its close but not see it, if it catches you and you're close to a wall, it can pass you through to the adjacent room. Another thing could be a rotating wall. Ok so you have a catwalk up top, there's a window so the player can jump into the next room, but what if it rotates every so often so maybe that window becomes a doorway on the bottom floor, like the whole building has a huge grindstone in the middle, a hole in one side, so as it rotates, it creates a temporary passage between rooms throughout the level.

 

Lots of really interesting ideas in this, I'll keep thinking on it.

oh-oh-snap.gif

Edited by FatkidForger

FatKid LD > Core LD

 

He hasn't got any faults, but maybe he's not perfect. But he didn't do anything.

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Ranked apex really beats you into submission. It's unbelievably campy thanks to the map and snipers being so strong. Combine that with a heavy reliance on teammates in straight up gunfights (you can't multitask and therefore 1v2 or 1v3 against good players is essentially impossible, especially given how open the maps generally are) and you end up with a game that basically comes down to large scale positioning. When everyone can beam you and there's a hard limit on individual power, the team that wins is the team that rotates the best and finds the best spot for the last circle about 95% of the time, and the other 5 percent boils down to which team was able to hold gibby bubble the longest in last circle. Force a teams bubble and that's basically the end for them because they'll get beamed by 6 different team when they are forced to rotate by the zone

 

It's fun in a competitive way. Knowing that simply making good calls for your team will net ranked points helps to give the camping that would otherwise feel like a huge waste of time at least some meaning. That feeling can inject fun into the worst of games because it's inherently compelling to take what you have and see what you can do against hard competition, but I still can't help but think how good Apex could really be with better maps. Then of course there's the character design. Nobody likes what wallhacks or caustic gas do to gameplay and neither of them are skillful, yet both are way too powerful not to run. Not a great dynamic there. Snipers are a problem too, but honestly in a different style of map they'd be fine.

 

All in all Apex has by far the most potential of any BR by a country mile. Hardest shooting and the most movement skill. Also importantly the movement skill is the dynamic kind, where the individual actions takes some effort to actually accomplish and players can get better and better at execution, unlike Halo 5 where the abilities are just single button presses which each activates a movement thing that can only be pressed on after another. 5 has the skill of knowing when to press the buttons over your opponent and in what order, but that is the baseline which exists in every game no matter what the abilities are. That could be more accurately called cooldown management instead of movement skill. Something like Apex is a contrast because, as an example, I've gotten a lot better at wall jumping in Apex and find new ways to use it as I am able to get more air with it. Personal mechanical improvement opens new doors for creativity. No one in the history of Halo 5 has anyone ever once "improved" their thrust slide mechanics as to be able to do something they couldn't before. We all do it exactly the same now as we did 6 years ago. So, there can be mechanical layers before ever even considering the cooldown management side which Apex has, and where to use it is yet another layer because most movement in apex is map dependent so you must be preemptive and plan movement if you ever want to use advanced techniques. To use the same game for a different point, H5 movement is almost entirely inherent to the player with clamber being the only "advanced" mechanic that requires geometry to utilize

 

Oh and of course the loot system is still terrible. To the person (many people) who thinks that the random loot is the source of replay value in a BR, just look at warzone (the most popular BR) and see proof that random loot is not at all what is compelling about the mode. Teams in the Apex pro league are already known for landing in certain spots and teams respect it because they all want to avoid the game of chance that are landing fights. Imagine how much more interesting and exciting it would be for everyone if loot spawning in fixed locations. You would probably get Halo style battles off spawn even in the pro league, and every team could plan a route for every zone variation. You would actually see the best teams consistently win, whereas right now no matter how dominant 3 individual players may be, the game may have other plans for them

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54 minutes ago, Westin said:

To use the same game for a different point, H5 movement is almost entirely inherent to the player with clamber being the only "advanced" mechanic that requires geometry to utilize

Wat.

 

One of the reasons why I love designing small scale maps in H5 with high density geometry and tight spaces, is because it gives a huge boost to the skill required to use the "advanced" movement mechanics. 

 

Being able to thrust backwards/sideways through a small door way, or to thrust slide jump perfectly over a low wall, or into a small window and then and round a corner with exact geometric precision takes an immense amount of spatial awareness/memory and mechanical skill. 

 

High Density maps are actually ascended for movement skill,  but unfortunately the difficulty of that ascension turns many people away from them because they get frustrated moving/shooting on them because they are always getting "caught" or "snagged" on geo. 

 

I dunno Westin, I think it's pretty ignorant of you to ignore the level designs effect on the skill requirement for using the advanced movement mechanics in halo 5 but then recognizing it for apex...

 

 

 

 

Edited by SaltyKoalaBear
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Of course geometry adds uses to H5 abilities, I never said otherwise. But, you can press thrust in a field, you cannot wall jump in Apex in a field. That was the entire point and you have missed it.

 

Also, like I said in the post, spatial awareness and memory skill (cooldown management) is always going to be there no matter what game we're playing and no matter what abilities there are. That's the baseline and is always present as long as we're in a 3d space. Beyond that is where mechanical improvements lie, like wall jumping higher in apex or teching in smash bros. You cannot "thrust better" in H5 as in get more use out of the ability via mechanical mastery. You can time it better (cooldown management) or use it backwards (spatial awareness) but once again those things are always present in any 3d video game. Outside of that my thrust is the same as the best players thrust is the same as the worst. That's not the case with a walljump in Apex. It requires all the spatial awareness and cooldown management of thrust, but the movement tech itself can also be executed to greater effect with better input. That's the difference.

 

I would actually love a much more dense apex map and that's what I always imagined. The movement is hard and is granular in terms of mechanical input skill so that the worst player basically has no movement to show off, and the best is insane. In H5 those ends are brought much closer together because everyone can just press a button to thrust. There's no buy in cost and therefore is much easier and spammier.

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12 minutes ago, Westin said:

you cannot wall jump in Apex in a field

Are there any other map-interactive mechanics you are fond of?  Are these potential interactivities limited to the player or do they extend to projectiles as well?  How can players and projectiles interact with the map?  

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"We tested a lot of different things, a lot of different settings but we wanted to make sure the grapple and really all the equipment had that ExPrEsSiOn element right. Those things that are powering all the clips youre seeing on the internet. Were seeing that. Were all gleefully seeing on the internet. We wanted to make sure its important for eXpReSsIoN with equipment. I wanna do this and do this i wanna repulse somebody and follow up with that mangler melee or i wanna put somebody into a wall and knock them off of a map. ExPrEsSiOnS are just paramount for designs weve done for this game."

 

"Certainly ive seen some eXpReSsIoN in the forms of being repulsored off the back of silo there with the hammer many many times in matchmaking, ive also been on the recieving end of overshield grappling hammer plays on behemoth so ive definitely seen different forms of that ExPrEsSiOn getting the better of me throughout these weekends."

 

....bros, remember HeRoIsM? 💩

Edited by no god anywhere
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@FatkidForger  A weapon whose projectiles both knockback and briefly phase shift the target could knock enemies through walls.  It could be a decent FPS translation of the Wallmaster mechanic; puts the power in the player’s hands.  
 

Or, elastic walls that stretch and deform from various forces could be paired with a regular knockback weapon that moves targets with enough force to push them through these semi-permeable membranes.  
 

What other ways could the environment react to unique stimuli?  My Gravity Hammer can pull a nearby objective to the weapon.  If the user positions himself so an elastic membrane is between him and the objective before pulling, should he be be able to launch it forward like a water balloon?  
 

 

spacer.png

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3 hours ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

this looks much more detailed than the original pillar/ column thing, what are the poly counts for both?

oh it's not lol 

 

 

977 polygons on bungies....                                                                                  818 polygons for mine so far....

970591655f9f58964e2dc05c6f76e78c.png

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 im so excited for the true open world dark souls experience, that is one of the many things that put me off of the later from soft games

 

WHOOoah is that noahs ark on the right at 12?

Edited by Soldat Du Christ

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speaking of models, I was contacted by someone representing a sort of NFT/VR project. If any of you have any levels or models you want to show off or don't mind treating as a museum piece, you can check this thing out here: 

 

www.mona.gallery

 

@Soldat Du Christ @JB_ @Kantalope in particular, since you guys are playing around with models and unity and gamers n whatnot

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