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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, icyhotspartin said:

Yeah, and they are the ones that stood out most to me as capable of general appeal on the MaxEx/Soul/Blaze panel. As to the ones that I would personally choose, they are the ones that I think best exemplify consistent build quality, playability (FPS and tactical depth), and clever use of the sandbox/physics engine/Forge objects. Yours is on my podium, don't forget. 

I'm unwilling to believe you played them enough, or were critical enough in the play-ability (FPS and tactical depth) category. Its also quite possible we have differing value systems in this category, or that you value the build quality and clever use of the sandbox/physics engine/Forge objects the most.... If this is the case, I can agree that, both of these maps execute exceptionally well in those category's. There coat of paint is top notch.

 

If I were to personally judge the contest, US or Marr Dunn would not even place in my  top 5. While both maps feature some incredible encounters, at  a high level of game-play, I do not believe the maps will play the way the designers intended them to play. At the end of the day, different strokes for different folks.  

Edited by SaltyKoalaBear

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34 minutes ago, SaltyKoalaBear said:

I'm unwilling to believe you played them enough, or were critical enough in the play-ability (FPS and tactical depth) category. Its also quite possible we have differing value systems in this category, or that you value the build quality and clever use of the sandbox/physics engine/Forge objects the most.... If this is the case, I can agree that, both of these maps execute exceptionally well in those category's. There coat of paint is top notch.

 

If I were to personally judge the contest, US or Marr Dunn would not even place in my  top 5. While both maps feature some incredible encounters, at  a high level of game-play, I do not believe the maps will play the way the designers intended them to play. At the end of the day, different strokes for different folks.  

You may be right re. holding up over time. I never claimed I was the ideal judge for this competition, as I don't play Halo 5 competitively - I can barely stand Forge as it is.

 

As to the system of evaluation I used, I focused mostly on how memorable the various encounters were, how many options I had at any given position, how unconventional yet also functional  the geometry was, how stable the framerate was on my XboneS, and how well the visuals held up over the whole map. They all developed a pleasant combat and communication flavor in that short amount of time, which I thought complimented the way they were built. With that in mind, I'm mostly approaching them based on what I (would) like to see in my own maps, rather than a well-ripened and surgically precise judgement based on hours of playtesting at a pro-am skill level.

 

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25 minutes ago, icyhotspartin said:

autocor-rekt

Couldn't be helped.  This was the name I first knew him by, so he'll always be Redemption to me.  DHG Redemption.

Just like Lockout will always be Lockout and Midship will always be Midship, regardless of what other names they're given.

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5 hours ago, SaltyKoalaBear said:

I'm unwilling to believe you played them enough, or were critical enough in the play-ability (FPS and tactical depth) category. Its also quite possible we have differing value systems in this category, or that you value the build quality and clever use of the sandbox/physics engine/Forge objects the most.... If this is the case, I can agree that, both of these maps execute exceptionally well in those category's. There coat of paint is top notch.

 

If I were to personally judge the contest, US or Marr Dunn would not even place in my  top 5. While both maps feature some incredible encounters, at  a high level of game-play, I do not believe the maps will play the way the designers intended them to play. At the end of the day, different strokes for different folks.  

Why do I always find you posting opinions that you've never said to me about my own stuff... We've had plenty of time to talk about and play my maps, and this is the first I'm hearing of this. Would you mind explaining  exactly what you mean? First of all I'd like to know how you think I wanted the map to play, and then how you think it departs from that

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Westin said:

Why do I always find you posting opinions that you've never said to me about my own stuff... We've had plenty of time to talk about and play my maps, and this is the first I'm hearing of this. Would you mind explaining  exactly what you mean? First of all I'd like to know how you think I wanted the map to play, and then how you think it departs from that

 

 

 

I have shared this opinion with you... I've voiced multiple concerns about many of the maps areas, some that have even led you to change certain aspects of the design and weapon placement.

 

I don't think the map is broken per say, I just doubt people will move as much as I know you personally would want at 

the highest level. There is very little incentive to leave the middle of the map.  Would you like me to extrapolate here or in a pm/party chat? 

 

Edited by SaltyKoalaBear

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31 minutes ago, SaltyKoalaBear said:

I have shared this opinion with you... I've voiced multiple concerns about many of the maps areas, some that have even led you to change certain aspects of the design and weapon placement.

 

I don't think the map is broken per say, I just doubt people will move as much as I know you personally would want at 

the highest level. There is very little incentive to leave the middle of the map.  Would you like me to extrapolate here or in a pm/party chat? 

 

No, that's okay. Same thing happened on With Love. Some people think they see a setup but I just have to trust myself, trust the geometry, and disagree, because I designed it and know it's not viable to stay still all things being equal. Also... we're still at the stage where people are confused about where basic pathways lead, so I don't really care that people don't move like I do yet. AND it's not like I care to have people move all the time and never stop. That's not the point of the map. Slow discernment and drawn out battles are fine, even fitting for classically "good" Halo gameplay, just as long as one can make advances on their opponent and have their small decisions eventually lead to a sure thing. A kill, wipe, or weapon.

 

It's happening with jumps too, people fall off the map and blame the map and tell me to change it, and I just KNOW that the jumps aren't that hard (as if hard jumps are even a bad thing in the first place). It also helps that I spectated Box once and saw him make all the jumps with ease. He's a great player so not everyone will learn as fast, but seeing that is how I know it's possible to make the jumps with practice and in combat. It's probably bad to FORCE jumps like that and have them as primary pathing, and so I changed the map, but I really had to dig through the feedback to come to that conclusion. I say all of that to say this...

 

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6 minutes ago, Westin said:

No, that's okay. Same thing happened on With Love. Some people think they see a setup but I just have to trust the geometry and disagree, because I know it's not viable to stay still all things being equal. Also... we're still at the stage where people are confused about where basic pathways lead, so I don't really care that people don't move like I do yet. 

This is why I dont always share my opinions directly with you, you seem to not care to hear them, don't respect them, or get extremely defensive about them. They are in no way meant to be a personal attack and they are just opinions, I as you, are a fallible human being. 

 

Ill leave this and leave it at this unless you want to know more.

 

I dont think the map has a singular setup, but rather will show a hotspot of movement that based on your own design  videos and video of the map, I think you try to avoid as a designer. That being said, I could be entirely wrong, but If my memory serves me right you seem to have an extreme distaste for maps with functional middles, which this map not only has, but also has an OS right below that exact location that spawns every 2 minutes....  Speaking of trusting the geometry, it literally CANNOT be trusted on this map. If it were on accident, I would be more forgiving as this games clambers always break, but Ive never understood intentionally making what should geometrically  be a clamber, not a clamber (or rather  sometimes not one).  I get it, clamber as a mechanic sucks for Halo, but accept this game for what it is, and telegraph as clearly as you can what is clamber-able and what isn't. Be consistent with it.  

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29 minutes ago, SaltyKoalaBear said:

This is why I dont always share my opinions directly with you, you seem to not care to hear them, don't respect them, or get extremely defensive about them. They are in no way meant to be a personal attack and they are just opinions, I as you, are a fallible human being. 

 

Ill leave this and leave it at this unless you want to know more.

 

I dont think the map has a singular setup, but rather will show a hotspot of movement that based on your own design  videos and video of the map, I think you try to avoid as a designer. That being said, I could be entirely wrong, but If my memory serves me right you seem to have an extreme distaste for maps with functional middles, which this map not only has, but also has an OS right below that exact location that spawns every 2 minutes....  Speaking of trusting the geometry, it literally CANNOT be trusted on this map. If it were on accident, I would be more forgiving as this games clambers always break, but Ive never understood intentionally making what should geometrically  be a clamber, not a clamber (or rather  sometimes not one).  I get it, clamber as a mechanic sucks for Halo, but accept this game for what it is, and telegraph as clearly as you can what is clamber-able and what isn't. Be consistent with it.  

After all of the discussions we've had, do you really think I'm defensive and don't listen? I am completely dumbfounded that you are again telling me something that you have never once said to me in party chat, even within the countless hours of talking on this very subject we've shared. We're in parties literally all the time, so I ask, why do you feel the need to be so confrontational in text and publicly diagnose me?

 

"I've never understood intentionally making what should geometrically be a clamber, not a clamber (or rather sometimes not one)."

 

Yeah, you can't clamber the windows in US, and that's on purpose... but I have NEVER said it my intention to have it sometimes work, and sometimes not work. Do you really think me so silly as to intentionally have it randomly work? After all I've said against randomness, and again, all the discussions we've had? So I ask, why are you assuming something so ridiculous? Oh, and I've also never said that clamber being a bad mechanic is a good reason to make it inconsistent. I can't even believe you think that I would say that. All in all, I agree that it's not optimal to have one spot not be clamber-able, but here's my defense.

 

1. The spot in question is a 45 degree angle meeting a shear wall, with nothing protruding from the angle, which should at least put it in ones mind that you shouldn't rely on the clamber, seeing as many other spots in H5 with similar geometry can't be clambered.

 

2. Players need only play the map once or twice to understand it.

 

3. If it's not consistent, it's not on purpose. I've even loaded the map up with other forgers trying my best to standardize what you can/can't clamber.

 

Alright, I am entirely and completely exhausted of defending myself from your text posts and then hearing a completely different person in chat. I'm not replying or reacting to you on forums ever again.

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Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, Westin said:

After all of the discussions we've had, do you really think I'm defensive and don't listen? I am completely dumbfounded that you are again telling me something that you have never once said to me in party chat, even within the countless hours of talking on this very subject we've shared. We're in parties literally all the time, so I ask, why do you feel the need to be so confrontational in text and publicly diagnose me?

 

"I've never understood intentionally making what should geometrically be a clamber, not a clamber (or rather sometimes not one)."

 

Yeah, you can't clamber the windows in US, and that's on purpose... but I have NEVER said it my intention to have it sometimes work, and sometimes not work. Do you really think me so silly as to intentionally have it randomly work? After all I've said against randomness, and again, all the discussions we've had? So I ask, why are you assuming something so ridiculous? Oh, and I've also never said that clamber being a bad mechanic is a good reason to make it inconsistent. I can't even believe you think that I would say that. All in all, I agree that it's not optimal to have one spot not be clamber-able, but here's my defense.

 

1. The spot in question is a 45 degree angle meeting a shear wall, with nothing protruding from the angle, which should at least put it in ones mind that you shouldn't rely on the clamber, seeing as many other spots in H5 with similar geometry can't be clambered.

 

2. Players need only play the map once or twice to understand it.

 

3. If it's not consistent, it's not on purpose. I've even loaded the map up with other forgers trying my best to standardize what you can/can't clamber.

 

Alright, I am entirely and completely exhausted of defending myself from your text posts and then hearing a completely different person in chat. I'm not replying or reacting to you on forums ever again.

I just suck at communicating through text apparently. I was never trying to publicly diagnose you, I was simply sharing something with another person on the fourms that had to do with your map. You responded, to that post, so I responded to you.  This is why I asked if you'd like me to pm you or party chat about it, but you simply said no. So I felt I needed to explain myself shortly so others could see what I was speaking of. 

 

I don't think you intentionally made the clambers sometimes work/sometimes not work. I know it was intentional to make them never work in that area, what I meant to communicate was that I don't believe this is good practice and even though you intended them to not work, that they sometimes do, which leads it to be all the more confusing for players.  I'm aware this wasn't your intention, believe me. 

 

I probably just mistake your passion for defensiveness when addressing my concerns, but you certainly did have an extremely impassioned response to my vocal distaste for the intentionally broken clambers.

 

If you don't like me speaking about your maps on the fourms just don't respond to it. This is an open discussion environment, it's good to talk about maps here.  Don't villify me for sharing what I stated several times is just an opinion. 

 

  I'd love it if people shared there own opinions about Day of Defeat, positive or negative, here or in a party chat or anywhere. I love to have my stuff  praised and I enjoy having it torn apart even more. 

 

❤️ You Xandrith

 

Edited by SaltyKoalaBear

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3 hours ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

Text is always problamatic as a means of communication, people read between the lines too much

 

I do NOT read between the lines too much.  :classic_angry:

 

On a more serious note, I feel like this link needs to be shared at least a couple of times per year, so here it is: https://noclip.website/

You can load up and explore levels from many games, including one of our favorites around here - Dark Souls. Definitely check it out if you haven't already.

 

Also, just published a Dev Blog covering some of the recent updates to the site, and links to some good content for level designers.

 

 

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Next Topic (have to get these in before they actually start testing).

Name 1 or 2 dark horse maps.  Something that's not got a lot of buzz, but has a chance to place in the top 5.

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49 minutes ago, a Chunk said:

Next Topic (have to get these in before they actually start testing).

Name 1 or 2 dark horse maps.  Something that's not got a lot of buzz, but has a chance to place in the top 5.

Sacral by fat and budi,  and eclipse by sega 

Also: revolving doors by Chron and lost growth by fat

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1 hour ago, Jake Stegmeier | MartianMallCop said:

Oooh not top 5? Nah Maar Dun is the best

It's a close #5 or #6 for me, same with US, will you take that? lol  I probably look at the design aspect too much, but I like alot of what the maps doing, I just think there are some geo changes that could help improve the art/gameplay and will help you accomplish your goals for the map better. Like what we talked about the other day. I'm only harsh on you guys cuz I love you, please don't hate me @Westin

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So I just started watching a replay of the Forgehub Twitch, walking through the 2v2 submission.  Can anyone explain to me why 80% of what I've seen so far is them trying to escape maps?  It starts before they even bother looking at the layout.  And it's 100% clear that on some of these maps there's a 0% chance they're going past the first round anyway.  It's super annoying to watch.  Is this a map containment contest?

 

 

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5 minutes ago, a Chunk said:

So I just started watching a replay of the Forgehub Twitch, walking through the 2v2 submission.  Can anyone explain to me why 80% of what I've seen so far is them trying to escape maps?  It starts before they even bother looking at the layout.  And it's 100% clear that on some of these maps there's a 0% chance they're going past the first round anyway.  It's super annoying to watch.  Is this a map containment contest?

 

 

I understand if it really interferes with trying to play the map, like there being certain jumps that allow you to exploit and influence the map from an advantageous position. However, if you really have to go out of your way and it doesn’t even influence the map then just let it go and keep a note of it for later on. 

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