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7 hours ago, Jake Stegmeier | MartianMallCop said:

Gave my Portfolio a huge makeover after getting a bunch of feedback from some of the mapcore guys. You guys think i should be using the indoor shot of Maar Dun or one of the exterior shots?

 

https://jakestegmeier.wixsite.com/portfolio

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Im catching up to you guys, slowly but surely, i like how mine is turning out as well

1260918535_Forgemapsthumbnail.thumb.png.a0054255c7c5aba3a52c3cef60b4b815.png

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It's interesting how how information and pace influence intentionality. In fps arena games, information is segmented, and depending on the map/ tools available to the player, the players can exercise their deductive skills, aka knowledge. In  a game like smash however, you are only ever exercising induction... all the information is on the screen, but the pace is so fast you don't have time to assess all the outcomes of every possible desicion tree. Because of this you are mainly making educated guesses with some probabilities being higher than others.

 

On paper this has the potential to cause problems, because good players can only make good decisions and be rewarded for being superior if they have the appropriate information to make decisions. This also leaves room for pure dumb luck to play some vague percentage in the outcome of any given match, because even the most educated of guesses can be made wrong by whatever small percentage of uncertainty is left after making your calculations. Battle royal games are the worst offenders that fall into this category. Luckily in the case of smash bros you are given enough information to make very highly educated guesses to the point where those uncertain variables can be reduced to a minimum by extending 1v1s across several different sets of a match, usually best of 5

 

Another thing that helps is the fact that players have several matches to gather information in the way of enemy patterns that can help them make even more educated decisions

Edited by Soldat Du Christ

1260918535_Forgemapsthumbnail.thumb.png.a0054255c7c5aba3a52c3cef60b4b815.png

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18 hours ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

 

It's interesting how how information and pace influence intentionality. In fps arena games, information is segmented, and depending on the map/ tools available to the player, the players can exercise their deductive skills, aka knowledge. In  a game like smash however, you are only ever exercising induction... all the information is on the screen, but the pace is so fast you don't have time to assess all the outcomes of every possible desicion tree. Because of this you are mainly making educated guesses with some probabilities being higher than others.

 

On paper this has the potential to cause problems, because good players can only make good decisions and be rewarded for being superior if they have the appropriate information to make decisions. This also leaves room for pure dumb luck to play some vague percentage in the outcome of any given match, because even the most educated of guesses can be made wrong by whatever small percentage of uncertainty is left after making your calculations. Battle royal games are the worst offenders that fall into this category. Luckily in the case of smash bros you are given enough information to make very highly educated guesses to the point where those uncertain variables can be reduced to a minimum by extending 1v1s across several different sets of a match, usually best of 5

 

Another thing that helps is the fact that players have several matches to gather information in the way of enemy patterns that can help them make even more educated decisions

This is a pretty cool way of thinking about the genres, good stuff.  Also I've been meaning to watch your "making of" video, I've been wanting to do one of those oneself for a while now and just haven't gotten around to it. 

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19 minutes ago, icyhotspartin said:

The only one I didn’t call was With Love - go figure!

 

Congrats @Westin, you are a level designer!

 

Congratulations @Westin @Box_Hoes and @Xzamplez on your top 3 placings.  :Fire:

 

 

Congratulations and condolences to @Jake Stegmeier | MartianMallCop @purely fat and @Chronmeister.

You each submitted really good maps that easily could have made top 3 in a parallel universe.  :classic_love:

 

I'm going to sound like a broken record, but I would love to have all of your maps posted here so that I can feature them.  🙏

 

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On 3/1/2020 at 1:19 PM, icyhotspartin said:

The only one I didn’t call was With Love - go figure!

79252456-99D4-415B-A38B-E8BC3C152798.png
 

Congrats @Westin, you are a level designer!

I was actually pretty surprised that Max ended up rating mine 1st on his list. Just watching some of the streams I had the impression that he didn't like it. But that's dope. 

 

Also @Westin way to go man. Both With Love and Uncomfortable Silence are top tier maps and easily part of my top 3

Edited by Jake Stegmeier | MartianMallCop
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I don't think i'll be trying to finish any maps for halo 5, but for infinite i have an amaaazing idea for a new 1v1 map, i'm going to translate all the qualities of smash bros 1v1s into a fps map, it's going to be so freaking beautiful... i think i'll call it fantasia 

 fantasia.png.77c259edcc2bbb55dbd76f292ee14be3.png

1260918535_Forgemapsthumbnail.thumb.png.a0054255c7c5aba3a52c3cef60b4b815.png

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4 hours ago, Jake Stegmeier | MartianMallCop said:

I was actually pretty surprised that Max ended up rating mine 1st on his list. Just watching some of the streams I had the impression that he didn't like it. But that's dope. 

 

Also @Westin way to go man. Both With Love and Uncomfortable Silence are top tier maps and easily part of my top 3

Top tier maps? Lawl.  They are both mediocre at best and that's being generous. I do enjoy playing both maps, and with more time and playtesting I think they could both easily reach that top tier level, but where they are at currently, just no. I'm thinking about doing a personal in-depth analysis of the top 3 maps and sharing my personal pros and cons of each map that placed. I will say with love is a top tier contest map for the panel of judges that were in place, and I'm pretty sure Xandrith said he just wanted to win the $ so choosing a safe 3 lane was an excellent choice for trying to win that $$$ 

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1 hour ago, SaltyKoalaBear said:

Top tier maps? Lawl.  They are both mediocre at best and that's being generous. I do enjoy playing both maps, and with more time and playtesting I think they could both easily reach that top tier level, but where they are at currently, just no. I'm thinking about doing a personal in-depth analysis of the top 3 maps and sharing my personal pros and cons of each map that placed. I will say with love is a top tier contest map for the panel of judges that were in place, and I'm pretty sure Xandrith said he just wanted to win the $ so choosing a safe 3 lane was an excellent choice for trying to win that $$$ 

Nathan my man... both maps were made before the contest was announced. Keep making things up about people, good looks 

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1 hour ago, Westin said:

Nathan my man... both maps were made before the contest was announced. Keep making things up about people, good looks 

Does that change anything? When they were made is irrelevant. Choosing a past work that fits into what you believe would make a good contest winner is a smart move. I wasn't knocking your goal to win money, and unless my memory serves me wrong, I was quite certain you said you just wanted to win the money? 

  

As maps designed to play 2v2 slayer at a top tier level  and uphold the integrity you spoke of in your deleted design video, I think there is alot to be improved upon and needed before they reach that level. With love and uncomfortable are quite behind alot of other submissions in that regard. It's not that they don't have the potential to reach that level, because there is alot of creative genius there, it's just that In there current state they aren't.  Again, I do like the maps, I'm just being real about it. Is what it is. Don't blame you for not putting in the  playtest /iterate work when the game itself is so shit. 

 

 

Edited by SaltyKoalaBear
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14 minutes ago, SaltyKoalaBear said:

Does that change anything? When they were made is irrelevant. Choosing a past work that fits into what you believe would make a good contest winner is a smart move. I wasn't knocking your goal to win money, and unless my memory serves me wrong, I was quite certain you said you just wanted to win the money? 

  

As maps designed to play 2v2 slayer at a top tier level  and uphold the integrity you spoke of in your deleted design video, I think there is alot to be improved upon and needed before they reach that level. With love and uncomfortable are quite behind alot of other submissions in that regard. It's not that they don't have the potential to reach that level, because there is alot of creative genius there, it's just that In there current state they aren't.  Again, I do like the maps, I'm just being real about it. Is what it is. Don't blame you for not putting in the  playtest /iterate work when the game itself is so shit. 

 

 

nope

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2 hours ago, SaltyKoalaBear said:

Top tier maps? Lawl.  They are both mediocre at best and that's being generous. I do enjoy playing both maps, and with more time and playtesting I think they could both easily reach that top tier level, but where they are at currently, just no. I'm thinking about doing a personal in-depth analysis of the top 3 maps and sharing my personal pros and cons of each map that placed. I will say with love is a top tier contest map for the panel of judges that were in place, and I'm pretty sure Xandrith said he just wanted to win the $ so choosing a safe 3 lane was an excellent choice for trying to win that $$$ 

 

Out of the contest maps available I'd certainly say so man. Maybe your standards are in some ethereal plain, but when we are comparing the dev maps for the past 5 halo games and games like Destiny, Doom 2016 and even some Quake and unreal maps I've seen I think a ton of the maps in this contest pool alone beat them out by a significant margin at least when it comes to gameplay and crafting unique encounters. Like with the ability to rapid iterate test that forge gives us honestly I think a lot of forgers are better than even some of the best industry designers. The only glaring things I found with Westins' maps are that I hate OS with a fiery passion in doubles.

 

You yourself claim that so much of level design is subjective but now your claiming that his maps are mediocre? What gives? What's your criteria?

 

 

Edited by Jake Stegmeier | MartianMallCop
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15 minutes ago, Jake Stegmeier | MartianMallCop said:

 

Out of the contest maps available I'd certainly say so man. Maybe your standards are in some ethereal plain, but when we are comparing the dev maps for the past 5 halo games and games like Destiny, Doom 2016 and even some Quake and unreal maps I've seen I think a ton of the maps in this contest pool alone beat them out by a significant margin at least when it comes to gameplay and crafting unique encounters. Like with the ability to rapid iterate test that forge gives us honestly I think a lot of forgers are better than even some of the best industry designers. The only glaring things I found with Westins' maps are that I hate OS with a fiery passion in doubles.

 

You yourself claim that so much of level design is subjective but now your claiming that his maps are mediocre? What gives? What's your criteria?

 

 

I'll give an in depth review about why I believe with love to be a mediocre 2v2 slayer map.  Again, it's coming from a personal place, and yes, I do set my own standards high, but one thing I firmly believe in, is holding invididuals to practice what they preach. I don't think with love practices what Xandrith has preached in the past. I'm human, I'm fallible and I could be entirety wrong, but I'm not going to shy away from critical criticism that I believe is justified. 

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The little forging cohort that we know and love definitely has a lot of really creative designers, and it says a lot that it has kept going throughout the H5 lifespan. But for whatever reason, I don’t see all that much high-quality level design in dev games. Like you said @Jake Stegmeier | MartianMallCop, barring Doom/Quake’s memorable levels, there’s far more interesting things going on in Forge than in other games. And that includes a lot of single-player / non-FPS games.

 

My money is on ease of use and iteration. No other game except Minecraft allows for so much in-engine creativity, and on console to boot. Unreal Engine is flexible, but the mouse and keys just don’t give you that feeling of hand-crafting an environment the way H5Forge’s control scheme often does.

 

I just wish H5 combat wasn’t AIDS. Maybe people would actually play these maps if it wasn’t...

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Don't worry guys we will soon be arguing about another clunky game but instead of thrust we will have a grapple hook. We will push some square pegs into round holes because it is what we know and think is good. Then take 4-5 years to actually learn how to play the game because the population died and only a few people will forge and test maps. We will have a contest where people who are largely in and out of the community  or new members for that game judge the contest. It will result in salt and as they say...

 

The salt must flow. 

 

P.S. Hopefully the OS/CAMO isn't broken in the next game.

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47 minutes ago, Chronmeister said:

https://www.ign.com/articles/quantum-league-time-travel-paradox-shooter-hands-on.     This sounds pretty I interesting. Maps and characters look way too generic,  but the idea is really good.

Gametype needs some work to. Looks like it could devolve into rushing the objective or baiting it very easily. Don't think a better map could fix it.

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On 3/2/2020 at 8:36 PM, SaltyKoalaBear said:

I'm thinking about doing a personal in-depth analysis of the top 3 maps and sharing my personal pros and cons of each map that placed.

 

Do it.

 

 

On the topic of forgers vs the industry: Much of the industry comes from custom content communities, so it isn’t a stretch for us to be comparable. However, I’ll say our goals aren’t the same a level designer in the industry’s goals may be. Accessibility has really held down the potential for what we see shipped in AAA titles. We make maps for ourselves, and they make maps for the largest demographic. A lot of the things we push for are the very things that the general player might push against. From a marketing standpoint, these barebones almost too simple layouts are the best approach. 

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