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2 hours ago, Xzamplez said:

 

Do it.

 

 

On the topic of forgers vs the industry: Much of the industry comes from custom content communities, so it isn’t a stretch for us to be comparable. However, I’ll say our goals aren’t the same a level designer in the industry’s goals may be. Accessibility has really held down the potential for what we see shipped in AAA titles. We make maps for ourselves, and they make maps for the largest demographic. A lot of the things we push for are the very things that the general player might push against. From a marketing standpoint, these barebones almost too simple layouts are the best approach. 

I think the market is only demanding of simple experiences when devs give them the precedent, and then bow down to those expectations when they manifest in players, which they themselves set. And the cycle repeats downward. Soon, our shooters will have aimbots built-in.

 

Luckily, people are only as stupid as you let them be. When the unapologetically deep and difficult games do come, we rise to the occasion. I heard a story recently from a pastor I regularly listen to, and he referenced a book he read when he was younger. A textbook on the fundamentals of logic. He said it was surprisingly hard, and soon realized by the cover art that it was a book used to teach gradeschool kids in the colonial period. While he, an adult with a PhD, found it challenging. I can't think of a better example for what I mean in action. The only thing that has changed, since that time, are precedents and values. We could go back, if someone/something led us.

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5 hours ago, Westin said:

I think the market is only demanding of simple experiences when devs give them the precedent, and then bow down to those expectations when they manifest in players, which they themselves set. And the cycle repeats downward. Soon, our shooters will have aimbots built-in.

 

Luckily, people are only as stupid as you let them be. When the unapologetically deep and difficult games do come, we rise to the occasion. I heard a story recently from a pastor I regularly listen to, and he referenced a book he read when he was younger. A textbook on the fundamentals of logic. He said it was surprisingly hard, and soon realized by the cover art that it was a book used to teach gradeschool kids in the colonial period. While he, an adult with a PhD, found it challenging. I can't think of a better example for what I mean in action. The only thing that has changed, since that time, are precedents and values. We could go back, if someone/something led us.

Toy Story for the Super Nintendo will forever be the hardest game I ever played.

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@Soldat Du Christ We'd be happy to support a community funded and run contest.  We'd be glad to help out in any capacity we can.  Is there something you'd like from a forum software perspective to help facilitate that?  Or what other types of support would you find helpful?

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3 minutes ago, a Chunk said:

@Soldat Du Christ We'd be happy to support a community funded and run contest.  We'd be glad to help out in any capacity we can.  Is there something you'd like from a forum software perspective to help facilitate that?  Or what other types of support would you find helpful?

"If the stars align" means i would have to have alot of extra income for something like that, also the drive, neither of which i have. Possible but not likely and not until infinite. 

 

That post was more so for box, salty, xxandrith, multi who are upset about the contest. Just fund your own contest,  but at least wait until infinite to come out because i would def want to compete in a contest ran by either one of those names

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37 minutes ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

"If the stars align" means i would have to have alot of extra income for something like that, also the drive, neither of which i have. Possible but not likely and not until infinite. 

 

That post was more so for box, salty, xxandrith, multi who are upset about the contest. Just fund your own contest,  but at least wait until infinite to come out because i would def want to compete in a contest ran by either one of those names

 I'm not upset  to the point I'd use my own money to fund a contest lol  all I really asked for and wanted was more playtesting. That's the one thing I think we all agree could have been done better.

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11 minutes ago, Box_Hoes said:

For once I actually did 95% of my terrain work lol 

Halo 2 gameplay rocks for the win 

kid you stole the map from chris carney, all you did was erase part of the wall, add your weird floating stairs, deleted that back base and added a ROCK in the middle guy.

 

df80cbdd68baa505ad6b3828a0791f38.png

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14 minutes ago, JB_ said:

kid you stole the map from chris carney, all you did was erase part of the wall, add your weird floating stairs, deleted that back base and added a ROCK in the middle guy.

 

df80cbdd68baa505ad6b3828a0791f38.png

 

Lmao the similarity is actually really surprising. But hey if it works it works. If you find the concept art from some of my maps you'd see how similar some of my layout is to them

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13 hours ago, Westin said:

I think the market is only demanding of simple experiences when devs give them the precedent, and then bow down to those expectations when they manifest in players, which they themselves set. And the cycle repeats downward. Soon, our shooters will have aimbots built-in.

 

Luckily, people are only as stupid as you let them be. When the unapologetically deep and difficult games do come, we rise to the occasion. I heard a story recently from a pastor I regularly listen to, and he referenced a book he read when he was younger. A textbook on the fundamentals of logic. He said it was surprisingly hard, and soon realized by the cover art that it was a book used to teach gradeschool kids in the colonial period. While he, an adult with a PhD, found it challenging. I can't think of a better example for what I mean in action. The only thing that has changed, since that time, are precedents and values. We could go back, if someone/something led us.

This goes into the reason why people play games though. Many people find enjoyment out of challenging themselves, but many more prefer a less demanding environment. Something as silly as an enemy popping up in a location the player wasn’t aware of will be enough to cause some people to get upset and possibly get off the game. The solution to this ‘problem’ is the flat and incredibly strict lane based level design we now see in CoD, where player movement has become far more predictable, and the emphasis has only further been pushed into who sees who first which narrows the skill gap and allows lesser skilled players to succeed.

 

I like having maps of this simple and predictable nature, but they now seem to use these principles as the foundation for all maps in the series, and it’s incredibly repetitive. But, from a marketing standpoint, it is probably the best way to go. I don’t see competitive players criticizing these maps based on those principles. They loved BO2’s level design. So if both communities seemingly are satisfied by this approach, why bother to create more risky layouts and come up with something that is recieved poorly?

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15 minutes ago, Xzamplez said:

This goes into the reason why people play games though. Many people find enjoyment out of challenging themselves, but many more prefer a less demanding environment. Something as silly as an enemy popping up in a location the player wasn’t aware of will be enough to cause some people to get upset and possibly get off the game. The solution to this ‘problem’ is the flat and incredibly strict lane based level design we now see in CoD, where player movement has become far more predictable, and the emphasis has only further been pushed into who sees who first which narrows the skill gap and allows lesser skilled players to succeed.

 

I like having maps of this simple and predictable nature, but they now seem to use these principles as the foundation for all maps in the series, and it’s incredibly repetitive. But, from a marketing standpoint, it is probably the best way to go. I don’t see competitive players criticizing these maps based on those principles. They loved BO2’s level design. So if both communities seemingly are satisfied by this approach, why bother to create more risky layouts and come up with something that is recieved poorly?

3 lane or not, design isn't risky, that is, if you have an intention behind what you're doing. I mean... it's in the title. We're designers, not gamblers. We don't "hope" our maps will work, we build them to work. 

 

Now, sometimes our intentions dont work out, but that's not a product of randomness and "risk", it's a product of ignorance on the designers part. That's why he makes another map, and then another. He won't admit it, but he's aiming at something, an objective standard to undergird his artistic choices.

 

The book example is as clear as I can picture the market. Gamers, like any other culture, will only be as simple as you let them be. If suddenly every designer became competent and started making intelligently designed games, we would adapt.

 

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3 hours ago, Xzamplez said:

This goes into the reason why people play games though. Many people find enjoyment out of challenging themselves, but many more prefer a less demanding environment. Something as silly as an enemy popping up in a location the player wasn’t aware of will be enough to cause some people to get upset and possibly get off the game. The solution to this ‘problem’ is the flat and incredibly strict lane based level design we now see in CoD, where player movement has become far more predictable, and the emphasis has only further been pushed into who sees who first which narrows the skill gap and allows lesser skilled players to succeed.

 

I like having maps of this simple and predictable nature, but they now seem to use these principles as the foundation for all maps in the series, and it’s incredibly repetitive. But, from a marketing standpoint, it is probably the best way to go. I don’t see competitive players criticizing these maps based on those principles. They loved BO2’s level design. So if both communities seemingly are satisfied by this approach, why bother to create more risky layouts and come up with something that is recieved poorly?

DING DING DING! Its all about Brand/product  identity. In today's world the vast majority of FPS games, and the maps within them, are capitalistic consumable products. Products that are primarily  designed to be consumed as entertainment. This fact is paramount, because how humans are entertained and what we choose to consume as entertainment is an extremely complex and not fully understood field of psychology and as such, the "rules" for what makes a good FPS Map/ Product are slave to this not fully understood part of our nature. 

 

Many of the FPS console games we have come to know and love or hate  like COD, Halo(1-3), Rainbow Six, Battlefield are all FPS Consumable products that have built for themselves a strong Brand/Product Identity. Each of those games set a precedent thru there game mechanics/ level design that attracted a certain consumer base. As you mentioned, changing design that has been proven to be effective, can be disastrous to a products marketability.  Let us compare this to the food industry.

 

Lets say that In 2021 McDonald's decided  to only sell sub sandwiches, this would have a huge, most likely negative, effect on the brands identity and its consumer base.   Although  sub sandwiches are a perfectly wholesome and designed product, a product that has proven to be a profitable consumable, suddenly shifting the brands identity by changing its offered product would likely have extremely negative ramifications.  Consumers that are looking for a greasy burger, would look elsewhere and consumers that already enjoy jimmy johns/subway/jersey mikes etc would not necessarily  stop consuming   subs from there chosen brand just because McDonalds is now exclusively offering them.   That being said, there is always an Inherent risk when designing any consumable product, especially those meant for entertainment. 

 

I believe the current primary issue with Halo is its lack of Identity, an issue  that started with Halo Reach.  Its always a challenge to adapt and keep a product fresh, new, and up to date, but adapt too much, change too much, and risk losing your products identity entirely  and with it the consumers that were attracted to that identity in the first place.

 

RIP Halo 

 

All of this to say, I felt what you were saying @Xzamplez

 

If others are not wise enough to understand, know I do. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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It seems like most of the people I know of within the gaming industry are pretty willing to push boundaries, and in fact even prefer to do so.  This would tell me that there are some overarching directives or guidelines in place at studios to assure that relatively safe approaches are taken.  So yes, developers are repeatedly putting out dumbed down games, composed of dumbed down stories, mechanics, puzzles, levels, etc.  And yes, there's a reason why they do that, as financially there is the feeling (supported by evidence) that there's less risk involved.  And yes, I think that many (maybe even most) in the industry recognize this and are frustrated by it.  And yet when consumers continue to consume the generic, those that produce the unique suffer for it. 

 

It's a vicious circle, with no clear bad guy dictating it.  Like, how can you blame a studio when one of the prerequisites for them continuing to exist as a studio is financial viability, and what's proven to work holds less risk than the alternative?  And how can you blame any of the individuals working for the studios when they may very well be relying upon the wages for food and shelter?  If anything, I could see laying blame on consumers, but who am I to tell someone that they shouldn't like what they think they like, and that they shouldn't pay for it?

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1 hour ago, SaltyKoalaBear said:

DING DING DING! Its all about Brand/product  identity. In today's world the vast majority of FPS games, and the maps within them, are capitalistic consumable products. Products that are primarily  designed to be consumed as entertainment. This fact is paramount, because how humans are entertained and what we choose to consume as entertainment is an extremely complex and not fully understood field of psychology and as such, the "rules" for what makes a good FPS Map/ Product are slave to this not fully understood part of our nature. 

 

Many of the FPS console games we have come to know and love or hate  like COD, Halo(1-3), Rainbow Six, Battlefield are all FPS Consumable products that have built for themselves a strong Brand/Product Identity. Each of those games set a precedent thru there game mechanics/ level design that attracted a certain consumer base. As you mentioned, changing design that has been proven to be effective, can be disastrous to a products marketability.  Let us compare this to the food industry.

 

Lets say that In 2021 McDonald's decided  to only sell sub sandwiches, this would have a huge, most likely negative, effect on the brands identity and its consumer base.   Although  sub sandwiches are a perfectly wholesome and designed product, a product that has proven to be a profitable consumable, suddenly shifting the brands identity by changing its offered product would likely have extremely negative ramifications.  Consumers that are looking for a greasy burger, would look elsewhere and consumers that already enjoy jimmy johns/subway/jersey mikes etc would not necessarily  stop consuming   subs from there chosen brand just because McDonalds is now exclusively offering them.   That being said, there is always an Inherent risk when designing any consumable product, especially those meant for entertainment. 

 

I believe the current primary issue with Halo is its lack of Identity, an issue  that started with Halo Reach.  Its always a challenge to adapt and keep a product fresh, new, and up to date, but adapt too much, change too much, and risk losing your products identity entirely  and with it the consumers that were attracted to that identity in the first place.

 

RIP Halo 

 

All of this to say, I felt what you were saying @Xzamplez

 

If others are not wise enough to understand, know I do. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I hope McDonald’s starts selling crow burgers 

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13 minutes ago, a Chunk said:

It seems like most of the people I know of within the gaming industry are pretty willing to push boundaries, and in fact even prefer to do so.  This would tell me that there are some overarching directives or guidelines in place at studios to assure that relatively safe approaches are taken.  So yes, developers are repeatedly putting out dumbed down games, composed of dumbed down stories, mechanics, puzzles, levels, etc.  And yes, there's a reason why they do that, as financially there is the feeling (supported by evidence) that there's less risk involved.  And yes, I think that many (maybe even most) in the industry recognize this and are frustrated by it.  And yet when consumers continue to consume the generic, those that produce the unique suffer for it. 

 

It's a vicious circle, with no clear bad guy dictating it.  Like, how can you blame a studio when one of the prerequisites for them continuing to exist as a studio is financial viability, and what's proven to work holds less risk than the alternative?  And how can you blame any of the individuals working for the studios when they may very well be relying upon the wages for food and shelter?  If anything, I could see laying blame on consumers, but who am I to tell someone that they shouldn't like what they think they like, and that they shouldn't pay for it?

Well, what if people are wrong about what they think they like? What if they've only ever known spam, and you gave them a NY strip? 

 

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1 minute ago, Westin said:

Well, what if people are wrong about what they think they like? What if they've only ever known spam, and you gave them a NY strip? 

 

Yeah, that's part of the problem.  People don't want to eat something they're not familiar with.  It doesn't matter if it's the best tasting or healthiest thing in existence.  A large percentage of people wouldn't want to try it for free, much less pay for it.

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3 minutes ago, Box_Hoes said:

You can cut them a perfect piece of high end steak but they still have to cook it themselves. That’s why devs are so lucky people are forced to play their shit. People know how they wanna cook something after eating it every single day. 

 

Epitaph is microwaveable oatmeal to me. It took me some time to figure out how to make it taste the best it possibly can but that’s all. It’a microwaveable oatmeal at the end of the day. (Which I eat 5 times a week lul) How do you even fuck up in the first place? 

 

Now lets just use chillout as our next example. That is a nice cut of meat (quite literally) and can take way more time to cook to your liking. And it’s way easier to fuck up cooking it. But once you find out how you like it damn you want that shit. It probably didn’t taste near as good your first few attempts though. 

 

So forge maps are abstract usually and food the community hasn’t really tasted let alone try and cook. Think they will like it their first time? LUL, but have a dev make it and throw it in matchmaking and then all of a sudden after so many games it’s delicious! 

 

I have more to add but honestly that was far as I want to go right now lol 

 

I'm getting hungry now.  Someone get me some MEAT!  🍖  🥩

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