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15 hours ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

The more I mature as a designer the more I move away from conclusive judgments when it comes to complex maps. Unless its very obvious the map im looking at is simple enough to predict the outcome, i'll stick to anything from I like it, love it, or im not sure.


I think we really want to understand maps as quickly as possible, and when it comes to maps with high complexity this can cause us to try and dumb it down in our heads so that we can understand it. This is not always done with bad intentions, that dumbed down perspective can help you get a grasp on how to approach playing it, which is better than simply being lost in all the stimuli. All of this is understandable and acceptable up to the point you come to a conclusive and premature judgement on a map.

 

I think we would all have more respect for one anothers content if we could get inside one anothers head and see the effort and intentions. But more importantly, if we could see how the map holds up at the highest level of play. However, the very nature of community made content means we are limited in our ability to demonstrate all the beautiful depth that is possible with our maps. We don't have an unlimited reseviour of testing subjects, let alone testing at the highest possible level. All of this results in mostly shallow interperetations.
 

Funny you say this because I've noticed on new maps, whenever I don't immidiately get the layout of the map. I stick to the routes I know best. and pretty much avoid new routes/new areas all together.

 

So you're right. ppl DO want to understand maps faster and easier.

 

otherwise they will do it themselves like I said. They will only stick to the routes theyre familiar with and wont branch out to new routes.

 

I still find new areas on MW that I've never accessed even now...

 

Hell I've noticed even on SP games I'm most likely to take the same path over and over again. And it's usually something small like, picking one stairs over the next. or Something small, nothing like game changing.

Edited by JB_

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It may not be just because of familiarity in your case. It could be for the same reasons that compelled you to make those choices the first time around. Knowing what those paths lead to could contribute to why you chose them again, but why did you make them in the first place?

 

I’m glad to hear you say that Soldat. Now all that’s left is appreciating what experiences the simple and shallow layouts might provide that the deeper ones may not. Designing for players vs designing for designers.

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35 minutes ago, Xzamplez said:

It may not be just because of familiarity in your case. It could be for the same reasons that compelled you to make those choices the first time around. Knowing what those paths lead to could contribute to why you chose them again, but why did you make them in the first place?

 

I’m glad to hear you say that Soldat. Now all that’s left is appreciating what experiences the simple and shallow layouts might provide that the deeper ones may not. Designing for players vs designing for designers.

Simple and shallow layouts at bottom don't offer much, if we are ignoring art and just talking about the map logic. The least a competitive experience is obligated to be, in this case a map, is balanced. Simple maps can do that, and that's fine, there is nothing wrong with that, and in some cases that's all they need to be because the depth is supplemented elsewhere.

 

Designing for players, do you mean giving the people what they want? If that's your thing go for it. I design maps for others yes, but not at the cost of being basic, i still want to push the limits of what players see as acceptable. Sometimes ill end up in a middle ground where it's too weird for the average halo player or too underwhelming for the average forger. But in the end as long as there is objective value in there im content with it


TiavQEl.jpg

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5 hours ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

Simple and shallow layouts at bottom don't offer much, if we are ignoring art and just talking about the map logic. The least a competitive experience is obligated to be, in this case a map, is balanced. Simple maps can do that, and that's fine, there is nothing wrong with that, and in some cases that's all they need to be because the depth is supplemented elsewhere.

 

Designing for players, do you mean giving the people what they want? If that's your thing go for it. I design maps for others yes, but not at the cost of being basic, i still want to push the limits of what players see as acceptable. Sometimes ill end up in a middle ground where it's too weird for the average halo player or too underwhelming for the average forger. But in the end as long as there is objective value in there im content with it

A design could also completely miss the mark by being simple to design yet hard to understand by anyone because the design process was completely arbitrary and inspired by something other than gameplay. A design that comes to mind is Dodecahedron. I literally just too a shape and placed it as every face of the central geometric structure with no rhyme or reason and created pathing based upon what I was then forced to work with. There's definitely depth to the map, but it's not what Halo 5 itself allows to exist peacefully. It's disorienting if it's not played for at least 10 minutes a day, requires quick flicks of aim to properly position themselves, and needs to be played over and over and over again to even understand how it's meant to be played. It's neither designed for the player nor other designers. It's designed for someone who's obsessed with the odd and wonky. It's literally appreciated by only me, myself, and I.

 

Remember, guys: the most successful maps are a compromise, especially in Halo, but, like, that compromise is just remaking an older map and saying it plays Husky Raid or Grifball or something.

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7 hours ago, Kantalope said:

A design could also completely miss the mark by being simple to design yet hard to understand by anyone because the design process was completely arbitrary and inspired by something other than gameplay. A design that comes to mind is Dodecahedron. I literally just too a shape and placed it as every face of the central geometric structure with no rhyme or reason and created pathing based upon what I was then forced to work with. There's definitely depth to the map, but it's not what Halo 5 itself allows to exist peacefully. It's disorienting if it's not played for at least 10 minutes a day, requires quick flicks of aim to properly position themselves, and needs to be played over and over and over again to even understand how it's meant to be played. It's neither designed for the player nor other designers. It's designed for someone who's obsessed with the odd and wonky. It's literally appreciated by only me, myself, and I.

 

Remember, guys: the most successful maps are a compromise, especially in Halo, but, like, that compromise is just remaking an older map and saying it plays Husky Raid or Grifball or something.

I love that map


TiavQEl.jpg

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@Soldat Du ChristMy point is that there is a purpose and place for all types of maps. Chunk once said that if there was one map he had to play for the rest of time, it would be a Midship-esque layout. There is a charm in simplicity that evades more involved designs. Dust, Deck, Aerowalk, Campgrounds, Midship, Nuketown. These maps would all lose the quality that made them so successful had they been designed by someone looking to ‘impress’ with their design prowess.

 

@KantalopeI like that map for the same reason I like Chiron. I think there could have been parts where you forgoe the hexagon shape (like destruction) for the sake of a smoother experience, but it’s hard not to appreciate how unusual that map is.

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1 hour ago, Xzamplez said:

My point is that there is a purpose and place for all types of maps. Chunk once said that if there was one map he had to play for the rest of time, it would be a Midship-esque layout. There is a charm in simplicity that evades more involved designs. Dust, Deck, Aerowalk, Campgrounds, Midship, Nuketown. These maps would all lose the quality that made them so successful had they been designed by someone looking to ‘impress’ with their design prowess.

 

I'm impressed that you remember that.  I stand by it too, though it's worth clarifying that I generally prefer asymmetric levels, and my next 2 choices would be Chill Out and Prisoner.  Those 2 maps also qualify as 'simple' in my mind.  But I recognize that this is just my personal preference.  I've always preferred levels that present a limited number of options to a player at any given time because I feel that gives the most value to each decision a player makes.

 

Digging deeper though, I like Midship in Halo 2 because it's the ultimate test of teamshot/teamwork, which is where that game really shines.  I like Chill Out because it has the perfect balance of movement options and power weapon/powerup spawning to drive movement and unique engagements.  I like Prisoner because it's the map that best displays the unique spawning of Halo CE 2v2.  Of course I could keep going down the list, but I am only trying to say that while simplicity is one part of what I like about Midship, I also like it because it's the definitive arena (pun not intended) in which to display Halo 2's best attribute.  I'm a fan of specifically designed, unique experiences.  Midship is recognized as one of the most versatile maps when it comes to supporting many gametypes, and that's because it's not the gametype that makes it shine - it's the fact that matches always boil down to which team has the best teamshot and communication.

 

Circling back to the subject of simplicity though, I think that designers tend towards adding complexity too much. Many think that it requires more skill to perform well on a level that has more 'depth'.  And of course this is true to an extent.  We've seen this in Halo with the evolution of the movement.  It made sense that adding movement options would gives a player more tools at their disposal to differentiate themselves.  But of course instead of adding one new movement option, many were added at one time.  We as designers often don't have a firm grasp on how far is too far.  There comes a point where adding options reduces a players ability to differentiate his/herself based upon mental acuity.  In fact, ironically, when you add an excess of options, you diminish the value of each decision, and therefore end up in a situation where decision making is devalued.  This is what we've seen in Halo 5.  This is what I see also in many designs by forgers.  But I think that like the designers of AAA games, we don't know how far is too far until we go there.  So we almost HAVE to go there.  I just hope we have more sense than others, and can recognize when something goes too far.

 

So yes, simplicity is good.  Complexity can also be good.  It's just harder to get right.  Ultimately, I think we're best off with a balance of both.

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5 minutes ago, a Chunk said:

So yes, simplicity is good.  Complexity can also be good.  It's just harder to get right.  Ultimately, I think we're best off with a balance of both.

maxresdefault.jpg

 

 

I'm actually curious, what do you maps do you guys think are complex Halo maps? If there are any at all. 

 

I mean anything CE is a given really.

Edited by JB_

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6 minutes ago, JB_ said:

maxresdefault.jpg

 

 

I'm actually curious, what do you maps do you guys think are complex Halo maps? If there are any at all. 

 

I mean anything CE is a given really.

 

It's primarily Forge maps where I see too much complexity.  But really it's a cop out to say they're too complex.  The issue isn't with complexity itself, it's with people simply not understanding how to add complexity.  The recent 2v2 contest is a good example.  I don't want to point out specific maps, but some of the top ranking maps were/are fairly complex in the sense that they have layouts that take a few playthroughs to fully grasp, and they have depth with small details that are only going to be picked up through repeated playings.  There were also some maps that were cut early on, of which I could probably say exactly the same things.  The difference is in how the complexities are implemented/integrated.  It's like the difference between adding some ketchup to a hot dog versus dipping the entire thing in ketchup and letting it soak in it for an hour.

 

And on that note, I realize I've not fully fleshed out my perspective on this, but it's all I have time to write right now.

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3 hours ago, Xzamplez said:

I like that map for the same reason I like Chiron. I think there could have been parts where you forgoe the hexagon shape (like destruction) for the sake of a smoother experience, but it’s hard not to appreciate how unusual that map is.

That's one of the reasons that I had at some point started reforging it. The issue with the reforge was that I was all caught up in the angles again. I obsess over those angles when I explore that map to where it's almost comforting. I agree with what Multi had said back when I had finished the og version: too much of the map looks too much the same. Most of the time players don't see the destroyed covenant vehicles on the dunes above or the death pit below (the cause of most deaths on the map, whoops!). If I were to pursue it again, I would have quite a bit of work on my hands in making it a more fun rather than nauseating experience.

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20 minutes ago, purely fat said:

I don't think there is much depth to making sure you get or burn OS and rolling spawns.

 

No, there's definitely not on it's own.  Obviously there's more to a match on Chill Out than just that aspect of it.  Just like other levels on Halo 1, you need to know the spawning inside and out, you need to have good positional awareness and movement skill, you need communication, and you need to be able to shoot well if you want to win.  Every level has all of these aspects.  I was only pointing out what I consider to be the distinguishing skill set that specific level highlights.

 

From a competitive standpoint, I prefer having levels like this that test a players skill in a specific area, with each level within a series highlighting/focusing on one specific skill set.  I fully realize this is probably a minority opinion, and I understand why.  But as I said, all maps are going to require a well rounded skill set - that goes without saying, otherwise it would have no place being played competitively.

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2 hours ago, a Chunk said:

 

No, there's definitely not on it's own.  Obviously there's more to a match on Chill Out than just that aspect of it.  Just like other levels on Halo 1, you need to know the spawning inside and out, you need to have good positional awareness and movement skill, you need communication, and you need to be able to shoot well if you want to win.  Every level has all of these aspects.  I was only pointing out what I consider to be the distinguishing skill set that specific level highlights.

 

From a competitive standpoint, I prefer having levels like this that test a players skill in a specific area, with each level within a series highlighting/focusing on one specific skill set.  I fully realize this is probably a minority opinion, and I understand why.  But as I said, all maps are going to require a well rounded skill set - that goes without saying, otherwise it would have no place being played competitively.

Was mostly talking about the 2v2 contest maps and the balance/breaker of maps shield. I think it is wrong to compare the depth that comes in traditional Halo to Halo 5 because Halo 5 is not Halo other than it's title and skin. I think a lot of designers and players see something that is different and come to conclusions. A map could have only 3 general areas for spawning and I mean macro areas but because the geometry is presented in a non-typical way the players brains flatline and look at it within the framework they have developed and don't try to understand a new experience that isn't necessarily complex, just different. Plus CE Chillout is the only good variant of that map and that goes for a lot of CE maps they don't hold up well with the spawning we have had since H3 and become very top heavy and campy.

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I almost forgot! I have a map to share with you folks.

 

613b4898 90f8 4a6f ae4b 02f3c6f26e27

 

https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/games/halo-5-guardians/xbox-one/map-variants?lastModifiedFilter=Everything&sortOrder=BookmarkCount&page=1&gamertag=Oh SoulFlame#ugc_halo-5-guardians_xbox-one_mapvariant_Oh SoulFlame_75e38eee-3b8d-4b25-9d49-a81d992a606d

 

The map is called Grasp. There's an Assault Rifle with max ammo in the middle of the map, and it is the main power weapon. Control it in a large room, a normal room, or a small room.

 

Enjoy.

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Anyone else playing Half Life Alyx? I'm blown away and only on Chapter 4. Game is so fucking scary. Crawlers walking on walls in pitch black, you have a flashlight in one hand and a pistol in the other. I'm having  a fucking heart attack shit is so intense.  The teleporting controls at least give me a cheap escape, but OMFG this may be the best game I've ever played. 

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8 hours ago, Chronmeister said:

Anyone else playing Half Life Alyx? I'm blown away and only on Chapter 4. Game is so fucking scary. Crawlers walking on walls in pitch black, you have a flashlight in one hand and a pistol in the other. I'm having  a fucking heart attack shit is so intense.  The teleporting controls at least give me a cheap escape, but OMFG this may be the best game I've ever played. 

too expensive

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15 hours ago, Chronmeister said:

Anyone else playing Half Life Alyx? I'm blown away and only on Chapter 4. Game is so fucking scary. Crawlers walking on walls in pitch black, you have a flashlight in one hand and a pistol in the other. I'm having  a fucking heart attack shit is so intense.  The teleporting controls at least give me a cheap escape, but OMFG this may be the best game I've ever played. 

Half-Life is one of the those series that people forget how freaky it really is at times. You saying this made me have ptsd about those spider things that almost one shot you in the second game.

 

Also, Valve don't fuck around when they make a game.

Edited by purely fat

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13 hours ago, purely fat said:

Half-Life is one of the those series that people forget how freaky it really is at times. You saying this made me have ptsd about those spider things that almost one shot you in the second game.

 

Also, Valve don't fuck around when they make a game.

artifact...

 

 

Edited by JB_

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