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12 minutes ago, icyhotspartin said:

Games are games

Interactive multimedia experiences are interactive multimedia experiences

Donuts are tasty but fattening

China is ūüĎĆGyna¬†

 

Long version:

 

 

And humans define the meaning of words, whats your point?

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13 minutes ago, SaltyKoalaBear said:

And humans define the meaning of words, whats your point?

Words are created by humans in order to define /things/, and language is a tool of defining and delineating relationships in communication. Just because we define things doesn’t mean they’re indicative of some ideologically-derived inaccuracies. Many definitions are, but it’s not true of all things.


My point is that putting narrative immersion first in level design does not necessitate a departure from designing for super high level gameplay at the peak of competitive play. Day of Defeat is proof positive of that, it’s just that it requires a suspension of disbelief in the visuals because Forge. The gameplay is still the primary, since you are trying to get players to think and act like they are in that setting.

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1 minute ago, icyhotspartin said:

Words are created by humans in order to define /things/, and language is a tool of defining and delineating relationships in communication.
Just because we define things doesn’t mean they’re indicative of some ideologically-derived inaccuracies.


My point is that putting narrative immersion first in level design does not necessitate a departure from designing for super high level gameplay at the peak of competitive play. Day of Defeat is proof positive of that, it’s just that it requires a suspension of disbelief in the visuals because Forge. The gameplay is still the primary, since you are trying to get players to think like they are in that setting.

That is completely reliant on what you define as "super high level gameplay at the peak of competitive play"  If I disagree with your definition, or even agree with it, and choose to design a portion of my level to go against what you consider "designing for super high level gameplay at the peak of competitive play"  and do so for artistic narrative reasons, thats MY choice, and I am 100% justified in doing so if it serves the experience im trying to create. Design is ART to me. 

 

Maybe I'm conveying what I'm trying to say inaccurately, buts its odd to me that people can't understand that products are human created constructs that have differing goals/uses based on the designers intention/consumers intention for using said product.  "FPS GAME" is such a loose term and concept that to begin to define what should constitute them precisely and specifically is absolutely foolish.  Its an umbrella term for a category of Multi Media Experiences.  Hence the terms "Halo" and "Call of Duty"  bring much differing thoughts to our minds.    

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32 minutes ago, SaltyKoalaBear said:

That is completely reliant on what you define as "super high level gameplay at the peak of competitive play"  If I disagree with your definition, or even agree with it, and choose to design a portion of my level to go against what you consider "designing for super high level gameplay at the peak of competitive play"  and do so for artistic narrative reasons, thats MY choice, and I am 100% justified in doing so if it serves the experience im trying to create. Design is ART to me. 

 

Maybe I'm conveying what I'm trying to say inaccurately, buts its odd to me that people can't understand that products are human created constructs that have differing goals/uses based on the designers intention/consumers intention for using said product.  "FPS GAME" is such a loose term and concept that to begin to define what should constitute them precisely and specifically is absolutely foolish.  Its an umbrella term for a category of Multi Media Experiences.  Hence the terms "Halo" and "Call of Duty"  bring much differing thoughts to our minds.    

Well, sure, if you decide to make something that doesn’t compliment the given sandbox, it might not reach the level of super high level competitive gameplay - and it’s totally up to you.
 

But super high level competitive play is easy to define - here’s a throwaway: gameplay in a given sandbox that tests the abilities of highly skilled players in that sandbox, and which is characterized by close, competitive matches, where both teams/players/whatever must utilize a vast swath of (or a very specific set of) skills, and where a clear winner is likely to be named.

 

The above can absolutely be quantified for a given sandbox, whether or not the maps packaged with it actually compliment the sandbox or elicit such gameplay is another story. If your goal is narrative over gameplay, of course, that’s up to you. Like I said, Day of Defeat is proof positive that you can (and should) absolutely build with gameplay first, especially if you’re trying to immerse the player in a narrative.

 

re. FPS - the FPS Game category refers to a defining characteristic, which is a first person perspective and shooter game mechanics. There’s a zillion different ways to make one. But if there’s no scoring, no objectives other than moving from room to room on a set track, I would hesitate to call it a game, since the player’s SKILL isn’t being tested - that’s why I said a Game is a Game, and that a Multimedia Experience is a Multimedia Experience. 

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24 minutes ago, icyhotspartin said:

Well, sure, if you decide to make something that doesn’t compliment the given sandbox, it might not reach the level of super high level competitive gameplay - and it’s totally up to you.
 

But super high level competitive play is easy to define - here’s a throwaway: gameplay in a given sandbox that tests the abilities of highly skilled players in that sandbox, and which is characterized by close, competitive matches, where both teams/players/whatever must utilize a vast swath of (or a very specific set of) skills, and where a clear winner is likely to be named.

 

The above can absolutely be quantified for a given sandbox, whether or not the maps packaged with it actually compliment the sandbox or elicit such gameplay is another story. If your goal is narrative over gameplay, of course, that’s up to you. Like I said, Day of Defeat is proof positive that you can (and should) absolutely build with gameplay first, especially if you’re trying to immerse the player in a narrative.

 

re. FPS - the FPS Game category refers to a defining characteristic, which is a first person perspective and shooter game mechanics. There’s a zillion different ways to make one. But if there’s no scoring, no objectives other than moving from room to room on a set track, I would hesitate to call it a game, since the player’s SKILL isn’t being tested - that’s why I said a Game is a Game, and that a Multimedia Experience is a Multimedia Experience. 

Yes, they are Multimedia Games. I think that  may be there actual classification as products.  When the actor becomes synonymous with the audience, complication ensues. 

 

The scoring and objectives for said product, is dependent on what the products are used for, its not that complicated my man and because the product is used for varying reasons,  the scoring and objectives are going to  be in state of constant flux. 

 

 @Westin Entertainment, and how humans derive pleasure on this planet deals with our inherent duality and paradoxical nature as Humans. Truth in an inherently flawed human created construct such as FPS level design is a meme. 

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7 hours ago, Box_Hoes said:

What do you guys think of using weapons/power ups to promote movement 

I think in some situations it can certainly be used as a tool.

 

But I think you also need an interesting reason for the player to want to go there as well, or to at least pass though a location beyond just the weapon. 

 

I'll list Maar Dun's damage boost as an example. While DB will encourage players to engage in the acrobatic rafter fights as intended. It's not the only reason a player's would pass over the rafters. It just adds to the existing encounter for a bit more of a timed and focused event where many players may contest the area.

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48 minutes ago, SaltyKoalaBear said:

Yes, they are Multimedia Games. I think that  may be there actual classification as products.  When the actor becomes synonymous with the audience, complication ensues. 

 

The scoring and objectives for said product, is dependent on what the products are used for, its not that complicated my man and because the product is used for varying reasons,  the scoring and objectives are going to  be in state of constant flux. 

 

 @Westin Entertainment, and how humans derive pleasure on this planet deals with our inherent duality and paradoxical nature as Humans. Truth in an inherently flawed human created construct such as FPS level design is a meme. 

They are multimedia games, sure, and yes, the scoring and gameplay¬†will differ (or should)¬†based on the developers‚Äô objectives. But they will not be ‚Äėin flux‚Äô in a particular game. Market forces may change developer objectives, but the products themselves will have hard and fast objectives.

 

As to audience and actor, and paradoxes - games are products, and they have an audience because of some aspect of the experience of playing them. Chess is the same, checkers is the same. Motorsports are largely the same, too. Could be price, could be the length of a game, could be the place you play it. There really isn’t too much that’s complicated about it.
 

And there’s no duality to human nature, nor inherent flaws. That’s right, I said it!! There are just abilities and limitations - limitations which we are able to work around to our clear advantage. See /the existence of video games/ for a case study.

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I like both... a fundemental footprint where players move around organically because of the advantages of various positions, and incentives placed outside the main footprint that are generally more risky to grab and therefore carry more weight to the decision whether or not you should go for it or not. These aren't mutually exclusive ideas

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20 hours ago, Westin said:

I really don't think timing a weapon is an impressive skill in Halo. It's... remembering, and usually at a slow pace. To then reward it with a blatant upgrade/free kills is one of the best examples of over-rewarding I can think of in gaming. It doesn't help that the team who sets up for it doesn't even always get the reward. I can't count how many times someone has srint-thrust-slid at a rocket/OS and grabbed it fast enough to negate my "timing" of a weapon. In Quake, Christian and I would have close games that didn't feel close, because we would destroy teams encounter after encounter just to have all our plays effectively erased by a single quad damage the opponent got by running at it like an ape. 

 

I say that to say this - it's an awful idea to introduce all of that^ to force movement, even without taking your level design in mind. Game/weapon design is a huge reason why, but that should be the first thing to consider. Then, you can think about LD. Oh, and I know subjectivism is trending again, but I'll still say it. If the only reason you go somewhere is for a weapon, the spot serves no inherent purpose and doesn't need to exist

 

okay the difference is that in h5 you're not timing shit. the game tells EVERYONE when the power weapon drops. so THAT was a bad exmaple.

 


That doesn't happen in many other halo games cause... PEOPLE DONT KNOW THE TIMES...

 

If I know when the weapon times are and YOU don't that's an acquired skill, one that you don't have. it's not something everyone goes in knowing. You take the time to learn it and chances are it will give you the advantage.... Not always, cause like you said, some people can either be on h5 where it tells everyone, or in the right place at the right time. But again, chances of this in every other game BUT h5 is slim. ONLY super tryhards know the times and that's a skill they learned from getting shit on by other kids who timed the power weapons.

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1 hour ago, JB_ said:

okay the difference is that in h5 you're not timing shit. the game tells EVERYONE when the power weapon drops. so THAT was a bad exmaple.

 


That doesn't happen in many other halo games cause... PEOPLE DONT KNOW THE TIMES...

 

If I know when the weapon times are and YOU don't that's an acquired skill, one that you don't have. it's not something everyone goes in knowing. You take the time to learn it and chances are it will give you the advantage.... Not always, cause like you said, some people can either be on h5 where it tells everyone, or in the right place at the right time. But again, chances of this in every other game BUT h5 is slim. ONLY super tryhards know the times and that's a skill they learned from getting shit on by other kids who timed the power weapons.

I wasn't talking about matchmaking. Most forge maps don't have pads, and neither does quake

 

Remembering that OS comes up every 2 minutes is not much of a skill at all. Think about it, it's unbelievably easy, and gets rewarded with multiple free kills because of the weapon design

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57 minutes ago, JB_ said:

okay the difference is that in h5 you're not timing shit. the game tells EVERYONE when the power weapon drops. so THAT was a bad exmaple.

 


That doesn't happen in many other halo games cause... PEOPLE DONT KNOW THE TIMES...

 

If I know when the weapon times are and YOU don't that's an acquired skill, one that you don't have. it's not something everyone goes in knowing. You take the time to learn it and chances are it will give you the advantage.... Not always, cause like you said, some people can either be on h5 where it tells everyone, or in the right place at the right time. But again, chances of this in every other game BUT h5 is slim. ONLY super tryhards know the times and that's a skill they learned from getting shit on by other kids who timed the power weapons.

He's not even referring to the weapon pads, the dynamic power ups aren't difficult to time either. Unless we're juggling multiple quick timers a la quake remembering a 2 minute timer is hardly a skill. 

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I guess I would say that weapon timing is a skill, it's just not one that holds much value to me.

I've probably done a poor job of explaining previously, but typically when I'm referring timing weapons or weapon cycling, I'm referencing the battles that they necessitate.  For me, the skill comes in the form of the decision making as to how approach the spawning of a weapon, and then in being able to execute it.  This isn't something that's needed on all levels, and certainly not something that's needed at all in certain gametypes, but it still has it's place.  It's something that I think can be incorporated into level design to help enhance a level, but it can very easily be implemented poorly.  An example of poor implementation would be OS on Chill Out.  Because of the placement it just ends to being largely a matter of luck as to who gets it if you have teams going for it from different directions.  An example of good implementation would be Camo on Damnation.  There are numerous ways to access it.  There are counters to most of those ways.  Each is dependent upon player positioning - a persons understanding of where all players are located on the map, and an understanding of the probabilities of where they'll go to access the powerup.  This is like the ultimate example of how an item can drive engagements and be a test of skill.

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