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@xandrith, i know you aren't asking me but the more i think about btb the biggest difference i can see is that there is less you can do as an individual to contribute to the team, and as a result of this my goal would be to supplement this by creating as many different roles individual players can take up. Obvious good vehicle implementation, but on the btb map i'm working on for example, i want to have a platform that migrates around the map that acts as a contestable asset for both teams to fight over. It migrates between 3 checkpoints which are opportunities for teams to take back control after it lands. Also being able to board it from man cannons on the perimeter of the map or from flying vehicles. Having all these different roles interact with one another really feeds into that large scale warfare narritive which i think is btbs most redeemable quality considering people generally don't prefer it for competitive play


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3 hours ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

 

@xandrith, i know you aren't asking me but the more i think about btb the biggest difference i can see is that there is less you can do as an individual to contribute to the team, and as a result of this my goal would be to supplement this by creating as many different roles individual players can take up. Obvious good vehicle implementation, but on the btb map i'm working on for example, i want to have a platform that migrates around the map that acts as a contestable asset for both teams to fight over. It migrates between 3 checkpoints which are opportunities for teams to take back control after it lands. Also being able to board it from man cannons on the perimeter of the map or from flying vehicles. Having all these different roles interact with one another really feeds into that large scale warfare narritive which i think is btbs most redeemable quality considering people generally don't prefer it for competitive play

Nice dude I like your initial point a lot. it ties in well to what I was thinking, which is empowering the individual. I used to play btb a lot like I do cods 3 lane maps. I use the dead lane as an opportunity to constantly flank behind the enemy team and sideshoot the people carelessly running back into battle.  A btb map that has opportunity for covert operations and segmentation that will allow a player to break off from the main battles LOS to get in to more protected and unexpected positions. Basically CQC tunnels or side routes that arent as hot on the map and would be good routes for a flag carrier to mix into their way back to base.

 

Also generally a map that has little battles everywhere. A nice even heatmap across the board with different types of engagements all over. 

Edited by no god anywhere

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I definitely understand the fantasy of btb, so I was looking for a more principled approach. Key differences/paradigm shifts that come with more players, problems that arise with huge spaces, etc. It’s all seeming unexplored, and I’d even say the same for 4v4. We could talk all day long about what makes an inherently good 2v2 experience, but the most I’ve deduced from those who make 4v4 and btb maps is a cinematic image

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On 5/22/2020 at 8:08 PM, Kantalope said:

Does this take place in Black Mesa or a familiar facility?

No, not Black Mesa, it is meant to be a Military and Research Complex vast as Black Mesa, hence why the same vibes, heh.

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On 5/20/2020 at 8:19 PM, Westin said:

@SaltyKoalaBear If you could help me, what do you find most principally important when designing a btb map for Halo?

 

 

I've been thinking on the best way to answer this shortly for sometime, and I've come to the conclusion there isn't. If your interested in an in depth response, Id love to have design discussion about it via discord or xbl party chat. If I attempt to explain my views here, were in for a ride and expect long stacks of words and piles of images, heres a short example of where this might go.

 

Basically I use the ancient origins of FPS games to help guide and shape many of my goals for FPS maps.

 

Here's a hint I am under the firm belief that the origins of fps games  are heavily rooted in (War/Conflict (With oneself and others) Individual Sport, Team Sports, Strategy Games (Chess, Chinese GO etc) Visual Arts and The Performing Arts.

 

Think of what each of these words mean in relation to each-other and to Individual Sport, Team Sports, Strategy Games (Chess, Chinese GO etc)  Performing Arts and  FPS Video Games.

 

Stage, Level, Arena, Theater, Map, Scene, Ring, Octagon, Course, Track, Stadium, Board, Field. 

 

Actor, Character, Teammate, Team, Cast, Role, Position, Player, Piece, Resource, Pawn.

 

 

Strategy, Script, Play Book, Tactics, Choreography 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by SaltyKoalaBear

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What fudemental design goal can you say applies to one player count that DOESNT apply to another?

 

Good Balence? Universal

Good Depth? Universal

Good Art? Universal

Good Narritive? Universal

 

Execution is only slightly different, its not unexplored, and its not mysterious, salty is trip right now thinking its this ancient godly wisdom, youre full of it

Edited by Soldat Du Christ

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1 hour ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

What fudemental design goal can you say applies to one player count that DOESNT apply to another?

 

Good Balence? Universal

Good Depth? Universal

Good Art? Universal

Good Narritive? Universal

 

Execution is only slightly different, its not unexplored, and its not mysterious, salty is trip right now thinking its this ancient godly wisdom, youre full of it

Its not necessarily the fundamental design goals or objective that change between 2v2 and BTB but rather the path taken to achieve them.  Id argue that the path to reach the same fundamental goals that 2v2 and BTB do share,  are vastly different and Id even take that a step further and argue that the player counts themselves act as a differental and create distinct genres of sport/game/theatere within the "system" of Halo and  do have some fundamentally different design Goals as well as shared design goals. Its these differences that separate them as product offering.

 

All products are in a sense "ancient" wisdom, because they all have origins in our past, our history as Humans.  Its not  completely hidden, or impossible to understand by any means, but its worth trying to understand. 

 

My belief is that BTB as a player count allows us to explore the Visual Arts, and Performing Art aspect of FPS level design to a greater more spectacular degree then that  of 2v2. The simple logic here is that we have more cast members/actors/players to use in order to express our narrative. Broadway production vs 4 actor play.  Think more colors to use in a painting,  more notes to use while creating music, more types of instruments to use while creating orchestral music, more words to use while writing a story, more actors to use while filming a movie, or actors and roles to fill while writing a play, more dancers to use for a choreograph, more players for a sports team (tennis vs footbal).  See what im getting at?  The scope of the conflict, and conflict resolution is  greater because there are a greater number of conflicts to solve. 

 

IN my humble opinion within the forge community  the Visual Arts, and Performing Art aspect of FPS level design, especially in relation to BTB,  has been EXTREMELY neglected and unexplored compared to the pure logical, tactical based aspects of FPS Games that have there roots in war/resource management games like Chess. 

 

Like I've said before, FPS "games" arent just "games", they arent just free thinking tools,  there product space is much more diverse and vast then that, and needs to be respected and acknowledged when designing for them as entertainment products. 

 

If you have the time, watch these videos @Westin Its amazing to see the parallels between  Theatre design and level design. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by SaltyKoalaBear

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On 5/20/2020 at 3:00 AM, icyhotspartin said:

Both are meant to put the first to sniper spawn on edge, not to the point where anyone porting gets a free kill, but so that they are able to create or continue an engagement and fight for sniper. Eyes on the exit while fighting, allowing for chases.

 

The closer one is meant to be the more obvious and dangerous route in, but the one with the least visibility in and out. I may move it closer to the cave room  entrance. The Green one is similar in that both are meant to allow players to see each other and choose how to engage. Sniper is meant to be easy in, but limited options out - either you go low, or you go along the ridge. Or you can stay and are in the flattest, most nadeable place on the map. It’s not a really dominating place to snipe from either.

 

I’ve also just never seen a map with teles that end up at the same spot. Adds some spice.

 

So far that’s how it’s played in testing, so I’m pretty pleased.

 

Edit: I’ve been told that the tele exits/sniper is a bit too easy to hold at higher levels. I’m considering various changes to address this, including raising the height of the central donut and adding a second path out of it, towards the weapon pod. I’m also considering my options re. Terminal room aesthetics and geometry, and Tele Room size/depth. 

This is an interesting conundrum. If im not missing anything major, as it is currently,  there is little to no tactical advantage to being on the "tele" side of the map.  That being said,  that easily perceived "flaw"  also  serves a vital narrative purpose for the map,  being that  it drives the players on the tele side of the map  into pushing  the high terminal side of the map. Im not sure this was intentional, but this imbalance serves the narrative vision of the map quite well by creating an "attack/defend" mentality in the players which causes the battles to play out in linear directional fashion that is similar to that of the campaign space this map seeks to reflect. The defending players (terminal side) assuming the role of the covenant, and the attacking players (tele side) assuming the role of the UNSC and Chief. Is this good? Is it bad? No idea,  but if it was intentional props.  

 

 

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I agree @Soldat Du Christthat there are objective principles fundamental enough to be considered in any player count, game, or even design, but that’s not what I’m after. Like, should I make doors wider? Stuff like that. It’s easy enough to talk in nebulous terms, trust me, I would know. It’s a different thing to conceive of and apply design solutions. And while I’ll never stop thinking about principles, they are only useful to inform and drive actual design decisions, and I was wondering if anyone had any specific advice in that area.

 

Btw, I don’t think it’s possible to operate outside of objective principles, so I don’t even care if the person completely disagrees with my philosophies, because what they’ve learned will still likely be useful, as they themselves can’t escape from reality, and will have naturally dealt with reality in their decisions, whether they agree with that realities existence or not🥰

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2 hours ago, Westin said:

I agree @Soldat Du Christthat there are objective principles fundamental enough to be considered in any player count, game, or even design, but that’s not what I’m after. Like, should I make doors wider? Stuff like that. It’s easy enough to talk in nebulous terms, trust me, I would know. It’s a different thing to conceive of and apply design solutions. And while I’ll never stop thinking about principles, they are only useful to inform and drive actual design decisions, and I was wondering if anyone had any specific advice in that area.

 

Btw, I don’t think it’s possible to operate outside of objective principles, so I don’t even care if the person completely disagrees with my philosophies, because what they’ve learned will still likely be useful, as they themselves can’t escape from reality, and will have naturally dealt with reality in their decisions, whether they agree with that realities existence or not🥰

I guess I wasn't aware of what you were actual asking. If you'd like to talk specifics, Id love too.

 

One area  in Halo BTB design that I think needs to be improved upon is attention to the relationship between LOS and cover, and controlling it in such a manner to facilitate and allow intelligent player and vehicle movement. Basically BTB maps need to do a better job of using segmentation  to create more distinct and readable/predictable spaces and paths. When LOS and cover bleed into each-other in sloppy un- thought out manners you get very random, unreadable and chaotic experiences, that all feel very similar to one another.

 

I time stamped an area Id like everyone to listen too. Watch until 8min mark

 

 

Play= map 

Writing= design  

 

Playwriting = Map Design 

 

[I think teaching is a lot like psychotherapy in some sense. In that at this level, what im trying to do as a teacher is understand what the students map is trying to do. If we can figure that out, then it becomes a question of "okay, how can this map do this thing better?"

 

What I've learned about level design and about my own level design from teaching, is a greater appreciation for the world of possibilities that exist whenever I sit down to design  a map. It makes me more brave, I think, to try new approaches because I'm exposed to and get  some sort of intimate collaboration with a range of  designers  who are trying to do things that are different then the things I do. ]  

 

Edited by SaltyKoalaBear

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Though I've moved all of my comments on Dark Souls to a separate thread, I'm going to share a link to my overall thoughts on the game now that I've played all the way through it.

If you have stayed away from the game, or maybe even quit part way through it, because of the difficulty curve, read this please.  Dark Souls is NOT hard, and this explains why.

 

 

For those that care nothing about Dark Souls, it is still worth a read because it addresses a very important aspect of game design which is overlooked by most designers.

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On 5/23/2020 at 9:40 PM, SaltyKoalaBear said:

This is an interesting conundrum. If im not missing anything major, as it is currently,  there is little to no tactical advantage to being on the "tele" side of the map.  That being said,  that easily perceived "flaw"  also  serves a vital narrative purpose for the map,  being that  it drives the players on the tele side of the map  into pushing  the high terminal side of the map. Im not sure this was intentional, but this imbalance serves the narrative vision of the map quite well by creating an "attack/defend" mentality in the players which causes the battles to play out in linear directional fashion that is similar to that of the campaign space this map seeks to reflect. The defending players (terminal side) assuming the role of the covenant, and the attacking players (tele side) assuming the role of the UNSC and Chief. Is this good? Is it bad? No idea,  but if it was intentional props.  

 

 

 

 

The version I was discussing in that post is now outdated but the general shape of the map is still basically identical. It was my intention to get the feel of that level of Halo 3's Campaign, yes. That includes the experience of fighting uphill for one team, and the other team defending their higher position - but the holding of that position is not the only thing I want players to do. I want them to drop down and push for the sniper, so that they can then push back uphill and use it to its full advantage. That way both sides are put in the mindset of pushing. The same thing goes for the placement of OS, with the strange detail that a successful push for OS can give the player the ability to both reset the map and grab the sniper, beginning the push uphill once more.

 

I do need to find a way to better incentivize the use of the eastern side of the map, but so far the new paths are holding up well, I think. I'm surprised at how nice Mythic feels on it. Major priority is the framerate, as usual. The other thing is making sure everything looks the same variety of Forerunner, and that the lighting is fixed. 

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I want to do halo 5 2v2 tier list video after my last bastion design doc. I know this always gets people fired up, but what is everyone's top 5 2v2 maps in halo 5 from beginning to end, and short summery of why? And yes your own maps  should be considered  for the list if you are going to participate, you aren't humble just because you leave them out, that's just you trying to look good. Just be as honest to your thoughts as you can be, even if you think you are a god and all your maps are top 5. The video will still be ultimately my thoughts and my teir list but i want to get some outside perspective to consider before i compile my own

 

Also, the tier list will be made publicly available to everyone, with all the 2v2 maps ready to go, after my video uploads. So you will be able to make your own 2v2 tier list. The more people that submit tier list using my template on tiermaker.com will contribute to a community vote and everyone will be able to see the popular community ranking of 2v2 maps.

 

Great way to end halo 5s forge life span

Edited by Soldat Du Christ

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21 minutes ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

what is everyone's top 5 2v2 maps in halo 5 from beginning to end, and short summery of why?

 

I'll go first.

 

5 - Bloodbath (my map): This was inspired by Salty's map, Swagger Up. His idea was to make concrete islands with teleporters that led to one another. I took the idea to a similar route, but gave the option to "swim" in the aforementioned "blood" to mix things up a little. Personally proud of this work.

 

4 - Heads Up (Slaphead): At the time, this was the most unique map I had played, and yet it was so simple! Zipping up and down the long mine shaft through portals and ramps, while keeping your pistol trained at the doorways and platforms, was a huge treat. Props to Sam for making such a wonderfully whimsical whirlwind.

 

3 - Day of Defeat (Salty): The cramped streets and halls, the small doorways, the claustrophobic tension, the adrenaline of a close match in this particular place, is addictive intoxication incarnate. While I certainly am aware that this map does not cater to all, it certainly hits you with how contrasting it really is. Nate hit a gnarly nail on the head here.

 

2 - Box CE (Box Knows): Being able to take the idea of Damnation's design philosophy, and to not only successfully replicate it, but outright improve it, is a feat to consider. The combat loop is incredible to do, beat, and redo every time. Alex dug deep, and did it done.

 

1 - Arcanum (Multi): Even after all this time, I still consider this murky damp dungeon dimension to be a must play. Even with its flaw of being a Halo 5 map, it is the single most unique play-space to exist, because of the Key. There has yet to be a better interpretation of this element, and there most likely won't be one, until someone tries to make something in Halo Infinite. Christian's maps better Key pun happening.

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3 hours ago, S0UL FLAME said:

 

I'll go first.

 

5 - Bloodbath (my map): This was inspired by Salty's map, Swagger Up. His idea was to make concrete islands with teleporters that led to one another. I took the idea to a similar route, but gave the option to "swim" in the aforementioned "blood" to mix things up a little. Personally proud of this work.

 

4 - Heads Up (Slaphead): At the time, this was the most unique map I had played, and yet it was so simple! Zipping up and down the long mine shaft through portals and ramps, while keeping your pistol trained at the doorways and platforms, was a huge treat. Props to Sam for making such a wonderfully whimsical whirlwind.

 

3 - Day of Defeat (Salty): The cramped streets and halls, the small doorways, the claustrophobic tension, the adrenaline of a close match in this particular place, is addictive intoxication incarnate. While I certainly am aware that this map does not cater to all, it certainly hits you with how contrasting it really is. Nate hit a gnarly nail on the head here.

 

2 - Box CE (Box Knows): Being able to take the idea of Damnation's design philosophy, and to not only successfully replicate it, but outright improve it, is a feat to consider. The combat loop is incredible to do, beat, and redo every time. Alex dug deep, and did it done.

 

1 - Arcanum (Multi): Even after all this time, I still consider this murky damp dungeon dimension to be a must play. Even with its flaw of being a Halo 5 map, it is the single most unique play-space to exist, because of the Key. There has yet to be a better interpretation of this element, and there most likely won't be one, until someone tries to make something in Halo Infinite. Christian's maps better Key pun happening.

Key pun happening ASCENDED 

 

also I have 4 versions of box ce, the newest one nobody has seen (except a few)  and I think it hits the fine line between having so many excess options vs being too streamlined. All my current files of that map are hacked up and inaccurate. 

 

I lack motivation to work on it due to halo 5s state but it’s been a fun map I like to go back and visit after time 

 

 

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Got bored, so I started imitating the F1 website's circuit infographics. All that's needed are the extra text boxes that indicate DRS Detection Zones and Speed Traps. I seriously wish that there were any popular racing sims with built-in track creation tools so that I could quickly test the layout.

Here's an infographic for Sazuka:
SazukaGraphic.png.5de11a5f44616ac5b4dc0dabc725e1d8.png

 

Here's the infographic that I am working on for a fictional circuit:
FictionalF1Circuit1.thumb.png.765d0416019f466cee38eb2524a01f9e.png

 

I'm thinking of having the two DRS Detection Zones being between turns 9 & 10 and turns 19 & 20, but I have no idea where I should place the Speed Trap.

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Here is a goofy little way of describing the difference between 2v2 and BTB. 2v2 is a simple 1-2 page poem. BTB is an epic poem.  

 

@Westin I will describe the ratio difference between 2v2 and btb. I'll use the the golden ratio to make it simpler to understand.

 

Say 2v2 is 1, 1, 2, 3

 

Btb is 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34. 

 

Basically, the micro remains unchanged for the smaller scale encounter but it is expanded upon to a greater degree in btb. Most btb maps suffer from what salty say's because they are not properly expanding upon the micro and they just inflate the 1,1,2,3 in size. Hope that makes sense. Made this really quick. 

Edited by purely fat

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