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34 minutes ago, purely fat said:

My issue with music in games is that it don't mean shit if the experience is lacking in other way's. Because game music like music in movies are complementary pieces and if the game they are complimenting is meh I could really give a shit about it. Resources should have been spent elsewhere. To me it is a secondary feature of a game to enhance atmosphere and its' overall value in creating a good interactive gaming experience is minimal. Not to say it isn't a plus but if you put more time into that than the actual game itself your priorities are shit.

Well... kinda. It's not like there's 1 guy making each game who has to divvy up all his time between different aspects of a game. You just hire 1 or 2 guys whos sole purpose is to create music for the game, and with that in mind, I actually don't think anyone has that large of an individual impact after the designers.

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25 minutes ago, Westin said:

Well... kinda. It's not like there's 1 guy making each game who has to divvy up all his time between different aspects of a game. You just hire 1 or 2 guys whos sole purpose is to create music for the game, and with that in mind, I actually don't think anyone has that large of an individual impact after the designers.

 

"The game has to be fun before it's pretty."

-Bungie Devs ca. 2007

 

Even then, Halo wouldn't be what it is without the music, the visuals, the story. That's at least 3 individuals who had a massive impact, because they made the world in which the gameplay takes place a world worth investing your time in. Even the level-up sound effects you get in CoD:4 factor in. Would anyone play CoD without that sugarcoating? Apparently not, because all the CoD clones out there do so poorly. Even something as dry as CS:GO's on Dust_de has sound effects that ground you in the world and make it liveable, memorable, etc. 

 

~tchhht

Counter-Terrorists win

`tchht~

 

 

 

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There seriously needs to be separate audio option for multiplayer vs co-op/singleplayer. I love music blaring in campaign, no matter how cheesy D-tier that is, and can't stand the sappy shit music that plays when I'm losing a multiplayer match. It's kinda silly to complain about this, but I don't care! I don't wanna have to go into the sound settings and change them every time I wanna switch gamemodes! That requires effort! But seriously, this needs to be a thing.

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17 hours ago, Westin said:

Well... kinda. It's not like there's 1 guy making each game who has to divvy up all his time between different aspects of a game. You just hire 1 or 2 guys whos sole purpose is to create music for the game, and with that in mind, I actually don't think anyone has that large of an individual impact after the designers.

Missing the point. I am saying more resources should go towards making the game actually work and less should go to sugarcoating. Too many pretty games that feel unfinished/lacking in the gameplay department these days. I know music isn't the greatest example for this problem but it worries me when I see people spend more time talking about music in gaming rather than mechanics that actually allow you to play the game. I see it more an more all over the place. Devs aren't stupid and they will use this is as a tool to pull attention from other lackluster elements in their games.

Edited by purely fat

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Also you have a couple guys but often times those couple guys will pay more musicians to record tracks for the game and session musicians are typically not that cheap. Still there are other areas where devs and publishers spend alot of money that should get less. The one I hate the most nowadays is marketing. So many  games are hyped up by big marketing campaigns just to fall absolutely flat on their face. 

 

Basically, priorities seem to be fucked by game devs and all I think about is the story I heard about the guy who came in everyday stared at his screen for an hour then played a game(not the game he is even working on) up until lunch. Went to lunch for an hour. Comes back plays the game some more. Then at about 2 or 3 finally opens unreal. Stares at it for an hour before finally starting to work and then brags about how hard of a worker they are because they have to work OT and I have worked with some people in QA like this as well and if you show them up by keeping your mouth shut and working they will want your ass dropped and your boss who doesn't know what is going on because he watches vikings all day at work just goes with their word. Shit is so dumb. I can't stand people that work in that industry bunch of useless bums who got a four year degree in something that is easy as fuck to get a four year degree in.

 

Also screw people like the guy who made Adrift and Overgrowth. Don't design for yourself when you are being paid to design maps for the Halo fanbase because they don't like camping with shotty's like you do. 

Edited by purely fat

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5 hours ago, purely fat said:

Missing the point. I am saying more resources should go towards making the game actually work and less should go to sugarcoating. Too many pretty games that feel unfinished/lacking in the gameplay department these days. I know music isn't the greatest example for this problem but it worries me when I see people spend more time talking about music in gaming rather than mechanics that actually allow you to play the game. I see it more an more all over the place. Devs aren't stupid and they will use this is as a tool to pull attention from other lackluster elements in their games.

I don't think I am. If the point is that devs should spend more time making a good game, rather than working on music, then I understood perfectly. MY point, in response, is that it's not the same people who design the game that make the music. It's an entire other person/team, and that person/teams sole responsiblity is to to make an awesome soundtrack. I don't think there's ever been a game, or a team, or a person, who actually thought "yeah, we could make this a good game, or have good music... let's choose music!" Like, come on. Things really aren't that simple at all.

 

Ande yes, of course I agree that gameplay matters more, but man, that's so obvious I feel silly typing it

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1 hour ago, Westin said:

I don't think I am. If the point is that devs should spend more time making a good game, rather than working on music, then I understood perfectly. MY point, in response, is that it's not the same people who design the game that make the music. It's an entire other person/team, and that person/teams sole responsiblity is to to make an awesome soundtrack. I don't think there's ever been a game, or a team, or a person, who actually thought "yeah, we could make this a good game, or have good music... let's choose music!" Like, come on. Things really aren't that simple at all.

 

Ande yes, of course I agree that gameplay matters more, but man, that's so obvious I feel silly typing it

I think what he's getting at is budget allocation. It's my understanding that he disagrees with the amount of studio budget/time going towards the music aspect of average to poor games ,the games  who would be better served spending there money on making the game mechanics better.

 

It's basically like paying for really good decorative frosting on a cake that's baked with shit base ingredients.  

 

That being said, I dont think it's an issue of budget allocation and more an issue with how the budgets are being used. You could spend your entire budget on making the game solid but if you hire the wrong people your games gonna be shit regardless, and music less on top of that. 

 

I'm fucking sick @purely fat

Edited by SaltyKoalaBear

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1 hour ago, Westin said:

I don't think I am. If the point is that devs should spend more time making a good game, rather than working on music, then I understood perfectly. MY point, in response, is that it's not the same people who design the game that make the music. It's an entire other person/team, and that person/teams sole responsiblity is to to make an awesome soundtrack. I don't think there's ever been a game, or a team, or a person, who actually thought "yeah, we could make this a good game, or have good music... let's choose music!" Like, come on. Things really aren't that simple at all.

 

Ande yes, of course I agree that gameplay matters more, but man, that's so obvious I feel silly typing it

No I am saying that more resources should be put towards the programmers that make the fucking game work. Spend less money on the flash and more on the people who get it to a playable state. We don't want another H5 where the fucking engine is inherently flawed and yeah what salty said and what I ranted about the people in the industry nowadays are jokes. A bunch of yes man yuppees who just fall in line with the status quo which fucking milking the shit out of as little work as possible.

Edited by purely fat

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10 minutes ago, SaltyKoalaBear said:

I think what he's getting at is budget allocation. It's my understanding that he disagrees with the amount of studio budget/time going towards the music aspect of average to poor games ,the games  who would be better served spending there money on making the game mechanics better.

 

It's basically like paying for really good decorative frosting on a cake that's baked with shit base ingredients.  

 

That being said, I dont think it's an issue of budget allocation and more an issue with how the budgets are being used. You could spend your entire budget on making the game solid but if you hire the wrong people your games gonna be shit regardless, and music less on top of that. 

 

I'm fucking sick @purely fat

Thank you 

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15 minutes ago, SaltyKoalaBear said:

I think what he's getting at is budget allocation. It's my understanding that he disagrees with the amount of studio budget/time going towards the music aspect of average to poor games ,the games  who would be better served spending there money on making the game mechanics better.

 

It's basically like paying for really good decorative frosting on a cake that's baked with shit base ingredients.  

 

That being said, I dont think it's an issue of budget allocation and more an issue with how the budgets are being used. You could spend your entire budget on making the game solid but if you hire the wrong people your games gonna be shit regardless, and music less on top of that. 

 

I'm fucking sick @purely fat

Sure, except even in the case of money... 1 or 2 people is nothing in the grand scheme of making a game. I get the point, but music is a weird example to pick on, because it's relatively cheap while also being crazy impactful.

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23 minutes ago, Westin said:

Sure, except even in the case of money... 1 or 2 people is nothing in the grand scheme of making a game. I get the point, but music is a weird example to pick on, because it's relatively cheap while also being crazy impactful.

The point is that music has a measurable impact, but should not be the primary concern in game development, budget or otherwise. This is the point because 343 appears to have coasted on all of Halo’s laurels while doing the absolute minimum of lip service to the design and thematic cues that made it such an impactful package to begin with. And it cost half a billion, to boot.

 

We can’t say for certain until it launches, but both early showings point to the usual pattern.

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11 minutes ago, icyhotspartin said:

The point is that music has a measurable impact, but should not be the primary concern in game development, budget or otherwise. This is the point because 343 appears to have coasted on all of Halo’s laurels while doing the absolute minimum of lip service to the design and thematic cues that made it such an impactful package to begin with. And it cost half a billion, to boot.

 

We can’t say for certain until it launches, but both early showings point to the usual pattern.

Okay, well that's just painfully obvious. No, music is not more important than gameplay. Come on, literally nobody would disagree with that. Does it even need to be said?

 

But it's also not a misallocation of resources, which is a finer point that seemed to have been hinted at, which is what I replied to, and is wrong

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9 minutes ago, Westin said:

Okay, well that's just painfully obvious. No, music is not more important than gameplay. Come on, literally nobody would disagree with that. Does it even need to be said?

 

But it's also not a misallocation of resources, which is a finer point that seemed to have been hinted at, which is what I replied to, and is wrong

Who said the music budget itself was a misallocation?

 

The general point that in some cases the music budget can be considered a mis-allocation is not wrong. There are absolutely times when too much money is spent on the music where it could buy more time or design talent.


No one said that music was a bad investment in principle, though.

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24 minutes ago, icyhotspartin said:

Who said the music budget itself was a misallocation?

 

The general point that in some cases the music budget can be considered a mis-allocation is not wrong. There are absolutely times when too much money is spent on the music where it could buy more time or design talent.


No one said that music was a bad investment in principle, though.

"Because game music like music in movies are complementary pieces and if the game they are complimenting is meh I could really give a shit about it. Resources should have been spent elsewhere. To me it is a secondary feature of a game to enhance atmosphere and its' overall value in creating a good interactive gaming experience is minimal"

 

Seems to say that music isn't a good investment if the design lacks, which is where I disagree. It's NOT the designer making the music. So, somehow giving the designers more money will fix the game? Design isn't bottlenecked by anything but the brain. More designers, or more money, doesn't equate to good design. You need the right person, and it's not like there's an index of designers for sale in which the good ones are double the price. You look for the right person, and their salary is pretty standardized. So, reallocate, and the game will likely still suck, and now be without music. For the second point, in terms of budget, music is an incredible investment for how few people/how little money it takes, so I completely disagree with that too. The whole problem with this thought process is that we're equating money to quality, and that's a fools gambit. The problem with Halo isn't that they've put too much money in polish, it's with the designers and leadership. Also, I'm curious, could you give an example of a game that was sabotaged by a lack of funding as a result of too much money in music rather than in designers?

 

"Marty makes pretty much everything we do twice as good, and that makes me really angry, because he's just about the only individual who has that level of contribution to the team"

-Bungie Devs ca. 2004

 

EDIT: Come to think of it, more designers actually makes it harder to create a solid product, as a result of clashing visions. See: Dark souls. 1 guy, best game ever

 

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8 minutes ago, Westin said:

"Because game music like music in movies are complementary pieces and if the game they are complimenting is meh I could really give a shit about it. Resources should have been spent elsewhere. To me it is a secondary feature of a game to enhance atmosphere and its' overall value in creating a good interactive gaming experience is minimal"

 

Seems to say that music isn't a good investment if the design lacks, which is where I disagree. It's NOT the designer making the music. So, somehow giving the designers more money will fix the game? Design isn't bottlenecked by anything but the brain. More designers, or more money, doesn't equate to good design. You need the right person, and it's not like there's an index of designers for sale in which the good ones are double the price. You look for the right person, and their salary is pretty standardized. So, reallocate, and the game will likely still suck, and now be without music. For the second point, in terms of budget, music is an incredible investment for how few people/how little money it takes, so I completely disagree with that too.

 

"Marty makes pretty much everything we do twice as good, and that makes me really angry, because he's just about the only individual who has that level of contribution to the team"

-Bungie Devs ca. 2004

 

I understand the business end, there may be any number of reasons the designers haven’t turned in a good product - paying the same ones more for the same work probably won’t fix anything, agreed.
 

But the original quote is true as well, mediocre gameplay can’t really be helped much by a good soundtrack. If anything, the soundtrack will outshine the gameplay and make it look worse. In such a case, the dev may as well reallocate to a better design team and take a chance on making the game playable. May not always be an option in the short term, but doing up shitty gameplay with pretty music and art isn’t a good long term strategy either. Should probably just release an open Beta to get some early investment or scrap the thing altogether.

 

The reason the Halo/Marty marriage works is because both are excellent at their core. One without the other just wouldn’t ring as true. The implicit associations wouldn’t be there. The newer Halo games that pull on those associations ring even more hollow because of that disconnect.

 

And anyway, have you therefore changed your mind since the other day, when you said that , beyond the designer(s), there is little to no effect one individual has on the finished product?

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16 minutes ago, icyhotspartin said:

I understand the business end, there may be any number of reasons the designers haven’t turned in a good product - paying the same ones more for the same work probably won’t fix anything, agreed.
 

But the original quote is true as well, mediocre gameplay can’t really be helped much by a good soundtrack. If anything, the soundtrack will outshine the gameplay and make it look worse. In such a case, the dev may as well reallocate to a better design team and take a chance on making the game playable. May not always be an option in the short term, but doing up shitty gameplay with pretty music and art isn’t a good long term strategy either. Should probably just release an open Beta to get some early investment or scrap the thing altogether.

 

The reason the Halo/Marty marriage works is because both are excellent at their core. One without the other just wouldn’t ring as true. The implicit associations wouldn’t be there. The newer Halo games that pull on those associations ring even more hollow because of that disconnect.

 

And anyway, have you therefore changed your mind since the other day, when you said that , beyond the designer(s), there is little to no effect one individual has on the finished product?

If you reread, I said that, after designers, no individual has a greater effect than the composer. 

 

Reading it, I see how you thought that. The wording made it sound like I was saying that no individual has all that large an impact, as if they almost have no impact. Not what I meant lol. If you heard me speak it, you would hear it as "THAT large an impact" because I do think music has a huge impact.

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1 hour ago, Westin said:

If you reread, I said that, after designers, no individual has a greater effect than the composer. 

 

Reading it, I see how you thought that. The wording made it sound like I was saying that no individual has all that large an impact, as if they almost have no impact. Not what I meant lol. If you heard me speak it, you would hear it as "THAT large an impact" because I do think music has a huge impact.

I mean, grammatically and linguistically I couldn't not get that impression, since you didn't say 'other than the composer'.

 

"Well... kinda. It's not like there's 1 guy making each game who has to divvy up all his time between different aspects of a game. You just hire 1 or 2 guys whos sole purpose is to create music for the game, and with that in mind, I actually don't think anyone has that large of an individual impact after the designers."

 

Anyway, confusion solutioned.

 

 

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I think i posted this before but I called it a year ago.

 

6d68d06c18173403e98c28c731b63d03.jpg

 

Game is in development hell according to some youtuber. (he has an insider confirming shit) but i'll take it with a grain of salt. everything  they've shown/said still points to disappointment and lack of content at launch.

 

"platform for the future" is bad PR for, " won't launch with shit..."

Edited by JB_

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