waywo What Are You Working On?

[MultiLockOn 1,252]

8 hours ago, a Chunk said:

 

The site name came from Qrrbrbirbel, who has generously allowed me to use it, and thank god for that because all of my other name ideas were horrendous, lmao.

 

Hmm...shirt ideas...

The truth is that shirt ideas are not my area of expertise.  Luckily we have plenty of creatively minded people on staff and within the community who I know are willing and able to help out with that.  There's definitely been discussion on shirts, and quite honestly it's just waiting on me to determine the correct timing for it.

 

For some background, which perhaps nobody cares about..., it will obviously require some work to create shirt logo's, determine where to produce them, setup shipping, figure out the best way to handle the transactions, etc.  There's an addon for the website that will make some of that pretty straight forward I believe. It would allow us to create an NLD Store, which would be integrated into the site, where we could offer a variety of items (including shirts).  The cost to add that isn't super expensive, but also isn't super cheap, so I've been holding off until I feel the site is large enough to justify it in my mind.  I feel like it's getting close to that point now.  The rest of it is probably relatively simple.  But since I'm learning literally all of it as we go along, I'm probably slower to get some of this stuff going than I could be.  

 

What would you like to see on a shirt?

We obviously could do something simple like the NLD Reaction:  

 

We've also been working on a revamp of the site header/logo.  It's not finalized yet, but will probably end up looking something like this:

 

You have any other thoughts/ideas/suggestions?

I think just a black anvil over your peck on a white shirt would look slick.  If there were any text it should be running down the sleeve on a long sleeve like this

 

[Soldat Du Christ 3,230]

4 hours ago, SaltyKoalaBear said:

@Soldat Du Christ you gonna leave me hanging buddy? 

Sorry man, i just dont want keep going in circles. I'll just say that physical sports are way different in the ammount of respect they deserve when compared to someone exercising something significantly less impressive. Traditionally, physical sports and mental sports have always occupied different scenes for people with different orientations, nerds and jocks for example. Bringing both physical and mental skills together to form a full and well rounded experience worthy of praise on all sides sounds amazing, and there have been attempts to do this (chess boxing) but video games is NOT it. Whatever you want to call it, muscle memory, TwItCh ReFlExEs, hand eye coordination, etc... using your thumbs/ wrists to DOMINATE your opponent via thumbsticks/ mouse is just an incels fantacy, it's all very underwhelming and insignificant. Just because it looks alot cooler on screen with whatever aesthetic i happens to be tied into.

 

Observing how there is a market domographic for that niche, or pointing out how games retain players longer when these features are present is argument ad populum and not an objective way to go about assesing wether or not it is a inherently good feature

[Soldat Du Christ 3,230]

I don't loke the anivl or the logo design, i just want a simple and clean font on the back of the shirt that says next level design, but maybe this will have to ckme down to community vote before we start a war over it, lol

[SaltyKoalaBear 1,814]

55 minutes ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

Sorry man, i just dont want keep going in circles. I'll just say that physical sports are way different in the ammount of respect they deserve when compared to someone exercising something significantly less impressive. Traditionally, physical sports and mental sports have always occupied different scenes for people with different orientations, nerds and jocks for example. Bringing both physical and mental skills together to form a full and well rounded experience worthy of praise on all sides sounds amazing, and there have been attempts to do this (chess boxing) but video games is NOT it. Whatever you want to call it, muscle memory, TwItCh ReFlExEs, hand eye coordination, etc... using your thumbs/ wrists to DOMINATE your opponent via thumbsticks/ mouse is just an incels fantacy, it's all very underwhelming and insignificant. Just because it looks alot cooler on screen with whatever aesthetic i happens to be tied into.

 

Observing how there is a market domographic for that niche, or pointing out how games retain players longer when these features are present is argument ad populum and not an objective way to go about assesing wether or not it is a inherently good feature.

Damn bruh, the assumptions are real.

 

Don't assume I'm trying to bait you into making a claim, I'm just trying to understand your perspective.  

 

Regardless, this is basically the information I needed to understand your perspective more. You currently do not value mechanical skill in FPS games as highly as say, a physical sport, due in part to the current barrier the actual instrumentaion (controller/mouse) creates  between our physical movement and the in-game character/weapon model movement. This is what I assumed the entire time and I do believe this IS an issue with FPS games and how mechanical skill is implemented/ valued within them. It will be interesting to see how better instrumentation (neural lace/implants, body sensors etc) to control our virtual characters develops over the years. I assume that if it does develop to a point of almost seamless mental or physical control, I believe you will likely also value "mechanical" skill in FPS games higher then you currently do. 

 

Am I at all correct in that assumption? 

 

 

[Westin 2,174]

neural lace

[icyhot 2,822]

2 hours ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

I don't loke the anivl or the logo design, i just want a simple and clean font on the back of the shirt that says next level design, but maybe this will have to ckme down to community vote before we start a war over it, lol

I think there’s room for both

[Xzamplez 335]

Ill try to come up with a design and if i come up with something im happy with ill make it in the trials outfit editor and post it here.

[Soldat Du Christ 3,230]

6 hours ago, SaltyKoalaBear said:

Damn bruh, the assumptions are real.

 

Don't assume I'm trying to bait you into making a claim, I'm just trying to understand your perspective.  

 

Regardless, this is basically the information I needed to understand your perspective more. You currently do not value mechanical skill in FPS games as highly as say, a physical sport, due in part to the current barrier the actual instrumentaion (controller/mouse) creates  between our physical movement and the in-game character/weapon model movement. This is what I assumed the entire time and I do believe this IS an issue with FPS games and how mechanical skill is implemented/ valued within them. It will be interesting to see how better instrumentation (neural lace/implants, body sensors etc) to control our virtual characters develops over the years. I assume that if it does develop to a point of almost seamless mental or physical control, I believe you will likely also value "mechanical" skill in FPS games higher then you currently do. 

 

Am I at all correct in that assumption? 

 

 

Mostly yes, except i can't imagine any virtual medium being the way to bring both of these two orientation together to their fullest. Not thinking to much into it i would think that somthing along the lines of a real life battle royal would be pretty close... not even joking lol

 

But no i think video games should stay entierly mental at there core, and if there is any implementation of physcial demands be it inentionaly placed or as a concequence of forced perspective (first person) the skill gap should be minimised as much as possible so as to not bog down what video games are actually good at providing as a medium

[icyhot 2,822]

3 hours ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

Mostly yes, except i can't imagine any virtual medium being the way to bring both of these two orientation together to their fullest. Not thinking to much into it i would think that somthing along the lines of a real life battle royal would be pretty close... not even joking lol

 

But no i think video games should stay entierly mental at there core, and if there is any implementation of physcial demands be it inentionaly placed or as a concequence of forced perspective (first person) the skill gap should be minimised as much as possible so as to not bog down what video games are actually good at providing as a medium

 

Neural lace

[SaltyKoalaBear 1,814]

6 hours ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

Mostly yes, except i can't imagine any virtual medium being the way to bring both of these two orientation together to their fullest. Not thinking to much into it i would think that somthing along the lines of a real life battle royal would be pretty close... not even joking lol

 

But no i think video games should stay entierly mental at there core, and if there is any implementation of physcial demands be it inentionaly placed or as a concequence of forced perspective (first person) the skill gap should be minimised as much as possible so as to not bog down what video games are actually good at providing as a medium

Your welcome to have your opinion as are any of us, but if you'd like to know why mechanical skill is a valued skill in FPS games it has to do with our cultural connection to the "tool" and our mechanical mastery over them. Much akin to how good fingerwork will always be valued highly among pianists or guitarists. 

 

Tools, and the ability to create/ use them, are a huge defining factor for our identity as creatures on this planet. It is almost inseperable from who we are, an extension of  ourselves.

 

I have no issue with trying to lessen the mechanical influence in some FPS games,  as that could be a great selling point for a game as a product, but 

  I honestly think you should just play Chess or a turn based  game that doesn't require you to process your ideas  in real-time via mechanical instrumentaion (tools).  Much like id recommend singing or composing sheet music to a musician that lacks mechanical skill but not mental skill. I understand you've never had great mechanical skill, and you as a consumer owe it to yourself to find, or create if none exists, a "game" product that caters to your self perceived  skill sets. 

Edited October 27, 2019 by SaltyKoalaBear

[Soldat Du Christ 3,230]

19 minutes ago, SaltyKoalaBear said:

Your welcome to have your opinion as are any of us, but if you'd like to know why mechanical skill is a valued skill in FPS games it has to do with our cultural connection to the "tool" and our mechanical mastery over them. Much akin to how good fingerwork will always be valued highly among pianists or guitarists. 

 

Tools, and the ability to create/ use them, are a huge defining factor for our identity as creatures on this planet. It is almost inseperable from who we are, an extension of  ourselves.

 

I have no issue with trying to lessen the mechanical influence in some FPS games,  as that could be a great selling point for a game as a product, but 

  I honestly think you should just play Chess or a turn based  game that doesn't require you to process your ideas  in real-time via mechanical instrumentaion (tools).  Much like id recommend singing or composing sheet music to a musician that lacks mechanical skill but not mental skill. I understand you've never had great mechanical skill, and you as a consumer owe it to yourself to find, or create if none exists, a "game" product that caters to your self perceived  skill sets. 

It's not an opinion, it's objectively bad for competitive video games. You are romanticising it alot which might be enough to sway the emotions of others, but i can see past that very clearly. You are not being objective about this much like everyone else i've argued against. 

 

Tools are a means to an end. Would you want to watch some one play the piano if there is no sound? Does it matter if the artist used a brush or photoshop to make great art? Or is the value in the end result of the art piece? Does it matter if a map was created with forge or with a more elaborate editor? How about just assesing the value of the map istelf.

 

All these means are just an arbitrary stepping stone to the desirable end where the you and the tool metophorically disapear and it's kind of like your brain is spilling out in the form of a painting/ composition/ map/ whatever it is your heart desires. A feeling I KNOW YOU ALL CAN UNDERSTAND AND REALATE TO.

 

 

 

I'm aproaching all of this as a designer, not a participant. Video games are the ultimate form of mental competition because of their potential to rise above contemporary table top games, they just haven't got to that point yet as far as i'm aware. Further development in this area is needed and I intend on pushing the medium forward by doing away with the fat that just gets in the way. You guys are all welcome to cling to your old ways, im moving forward

[SaltyKoalaBear 1,814]

32 minutes ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

It's not an opinion, it's objectively bad for competitive video games. You are romanticising it alot which might be enough to sway the emotions of others, but i can see past that very clearly. You are not being objective about this much like everyone else i've argued against. 

 

Tools are a means to an end. Would you want to watch some one play the piano if there is no sound? Does it matter if the artist used a brush or photoshop to make great art? Or is the value in the end result of the art piece? Does it matter if a map was created with forge or with a more elaborate editor? How about just assesing the value of the map istelf.

 

All these means are just an arbitrary stepping stone to the desirable end where the you and the tool metophorically disapear and it's kind of like your brain is spilling out in the form of a painting/ composition/ map/ whatever it is your heart desires. A feeling I KNOW YOU ALL CAN UNDERSTAND AND REALATE TO.

 

 

 

I'm aproaching all of this as a designer, not a participant. Video games are the ultimate form of mental competition because of their potential to rise above contemporary table top games, they just haven't got to that point yet as far as i'm aware. Further development in this area is needed and I intend on pushing the medium forward by doing away with the fat that just gets in the way. You guys are all welcome to cling to your old ways, im moving forward

In what way am I not being objective about this? Part of FPS video games Identity is how we interact with them via mechanical instrumentaion. That is an undeniable objective fact. No matter what you do to try to mitigate that mechanical influence, and you may be entirely correct in that goal, it's going to be impossible to completely remove the value that mechanical skill holds in the system. Lessen it sure, but completely remove it, no. 

 

You should start a journey to improve the mechanical instrumentaion if you truly wish to the see the "stepping stone(tool)" play less of a role then it currently does. As to fully achieve this stepping stoneless streamlined process, is going to require improvement in BOTH the mechanical instrumentaion AND how it's implemented in game. Due to what I can only assume your limitations are, you can currently only control the HOW it's implemented part and it makes sense as to why that would be your point of focus.  Just know that by doing so you are only solving half of the problem.  Which is an objectively non wholesome way to solve the mechanical skill value issue. 

 

 

That being said, products are about identity and so long as there are customers that desire it, there IS space in an open market for FPS games that place mechanical skill at the forefront of there value system.   

 

 

Edited October 27, 2019 by SaltyKoalaBear

[SaltyKoalaBear 1,814]

I wonder @Soldat Du Christ do you understand why auto-aim, magnetism, and sticky reticule were implemented into FPS games? It came about as a means to bridge the mechanical gap between a greater and a lesser  of two mechanical control instruments, the Mouse and the Controller (Thumbsticks)

 

You do realize that the human body itself is a tool, and that how we express our mental thoughts is through that tool? So long as we are bound to our human form, tools will ALWAYS be valued and that is simply due to the materialist nature of this universe.  This is inescapable. But please continue to strive to lessen those material bounds, I completely support your goals in that process and I do understand why you hold them, I'm simply trying to help you make sense of the other perspective. 

 

 

[Westin 2,174]

Lately I've been thinking a lot on the maturity of my own maps. For a long time, I was in the camp of "maps don't need to have a theme" and of course, as you all know, over time that changed. But now, when I look at my maps like With Love and Uncomfortable Silence, I can't help but cringe a little. I could write a long post on exactly why that is, but I'll just refer to the wisdom of Hex and call it the "lego blocks effect." While my levels have themes, and in large part make sense geometrically, they lack artistic verisimilitude. It's 99% a space for Halo spartans to play each other on and 1% something more, and I'm starting to hate that. With love was supposed to be something more, every area and their connections originally would've have been satisfactory, at least at the time, but of course the limits of Forge made me completely reinvent the theme, connections, skybox and just about everything else.

 

My next map is supposed to be a sort of dream state, an abstraction, and so the implementation of 'sense' to a fine degree isn't as necessary, but even within a theme like this, I'm really trying to make the space look and act like something compellingly authentic that also works well with Halo. I imagine that a good investigator should be able to come into my level and eventually understand how things became the way they are. The destruction, the terrain, everything should have a reason. And no, just just a gameplay reason, but as many reasons as I can create and interweave. Something like what Icyhot said, not more inputs, but more input. Basically, I'm trying to play God. I imagine that God has a reason for everything in his design, literally down to every atom and its placement. I often have thought that maybe my place in life is just to have an effect on one other person, which would eventually lead to something happening in the future for good. The point is, I want more. If anyone here has ever seen the movie 'signs' you might get what I mean by this sort of design.

 

mind you, none of this is thought out yet, and not at all organized

[Soldat Du Christ 3,230]

2 hours ago, Westin said:

Lately I've been thinking a lot on the maturity of my own maps. For a long time, I was in the camp of "maps don't need to have a theme" and of course, as you all know, over time that changed. But now, when I look at my maps like With Love and Uncomfortable Silence, I can't help but cringe a little. I could write a long post on exactly why that is, but I'll just refer to the wisdom of Hex and call it the "lego blocks effect." While my levels have themes, and in large part make sense geometrically, they lack artistic verisimilitude. It's 99% a space for Halo spartans to play each other on and 1% something more, and I'm starting to hate that. With love was supposed to be something more, every area and their connections originally would've have been satisfactory, at least at the time, but of course the limits of Forge made me completely reinvent the theme, connections, skybox and just about everything else.

 

My next map is supposed to be a sort of dream state, an abstraction, and so the implementation of 'sense' to a fine degree isn't as necessary, but even within a theme like this, I'm really trying to make the space look and act like something compellingly authentic that also works well with Halo. I imagine that a good investigator should be able to come into my level and eventually understand how things became the way they are. The destruction, the terrain, everything should have a reason. And no, just just a gameplay reason, but as many reasons as I can create and interweave. Something like what Icyhot said, not more inputs, but more input. Basically, I'm trying to play God. I imagine that God has a reason for everything in his design, literally down to every atom and its placement. I often have thought that maybe my place in life is just to have an effect on one other person, which would eventually lead to something happening in the future for good. The point is, I want more. If anyone here has ever seen the movie 'signs' you might get what I mean by this sort of design.

 

mind you, none of this is thought out yet, and not at all organized

US looks awesome dude, i think that map looks great honest. And that abtract idea you are talking about made me think of that bo3 map where the terrain was all twisted on the back ground, cool idea if that's what you are going for

[Soldat Du Christ 3,230]

I've only just recently grown a distaste for forge limitations. Like i know i can make a map look good, as long as its boxed in and i can control the lighting.  But i actually just want to make a map with lots of different compartments and hidden secrets, enviornmental story telling, etc.

 

Like, in theory you can make a competitive map that takes up as much space of a traditional btb map and still have it function perfectly, it all about execution. Like that big underground tunel i put in tribunal, it does have some functionality, but realy the whole reason i put in there in the first place had nothing to do with funtionality. I wanted to deliver the experience of wonder, and discovery, those "oh wow i didnt even know you could go down here" or how you can see the dimply lit entrence when looking through the speed boost window, it's enticing and makes you want to find out how to get into that room to explore. And when you do walk through there wondering whats down there, you look up and see you are directly below the beast, that has the potential to be very powerful from a narritive perspective. That feeling of being in 'the belly of the beast' and wondering how many more secrets can you find. Or i love it when people fall down there thinking they are going to die and then just have to find there way back out and realise that the map connects together like a maze in some cool ways.

 

As long as these spaces can't be abused, and can be deduced its all good. I just want to make a map full of those kind of emotions, kind of like a ds map, but forge is too limited

[a Chunk 2,795]

I'd bet God finds creating things in a 3D universe incredibly limiting. Think of how difficult it must be to imagine something a trillion times more beautiful than what you can actual create. And here we are complaining about forge, lol.

 

Part of the skill of designing is being able to work within, and minimize the impact of, limitations. It's something that filmmakers and those that create within literally any interface have to deal with. This has always been, and will always be the case. We can wish the limitations away all we want, but ultimately they're unavoidable.

[Westin 2,174]

10 minutes ago, a Chunk said:

I'd bet God finds creating things in a 3D universe incredibly limiting. Think of how difficult it must be to imagine something a trillion times more beautiful than what you can actual create. And here we are complaining about forge, lol.

 

Part of the skill of designing is being able to work within, and minimize the impact of, limitations. It's something that filmmakers and those that create within literally any interface have to deal with. This has always been, and will always be the case. We can wish the limitations away all we want, but ultimately they're unavoidable.

I think there are such things as reasonable and unreasonable limits. It's reasonable to expect that our maps can never be infinite, but I think it's unreasonable that the direction of the light on Tidal doesn't even match the placement of the sun. I could go on.

 

A lot of this has to do with a lack of control. Limitations are unavoidable, yes, but Forge could offer waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more control over our creative products than it does currently. For example, we're limited in the amount of detail we can apply before performance issues arise in any editor, but Forge doesn't have perf tools, like the ability to de-render objects that aren't in view, or parts of objects that are phased into one another. This is an artificial limitation, not as a result of tech, but by the editors design. That's the frustrating part.

 

And to comment on your first comment, we haven't found an end to the universe. We can currently see, from one end to the other, 92 billion light years of creation. At this point, I don't think it would be crazy to assume that an infinite God created an infinite cosmos

[SaltyKoalaBear 1,814]

7 hours ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

Tools are a means to an end. Would you want to watch some one play the piano if there is no sound? Does it matter if the artist used a brush or photoshop to make great art? Or is the value in the end result of the art piece? Does it matter if a map was created with forge or with a more elaborate editor? How about just assesing the value of the map istelf.

 

All these means are just an arbitrary stepping stone to the desirable end where the you and the tool metophorically disapear and it's kind of like your brain is spilling out in the form of a painting/ composition/ map/ whatever it is your heart desires. A feeling I KNOW YOU ALL CAN UNDERSTAND AND REALATE TO.

 

 

I  found this bit particularly telling. 

 

Let me tell you about a boy named timmy.

 

 

Timmys end goal in life is to create good piano music.  Timmy has a brilliant mind and has composed several pieces of sheet music for the piano.  Timmy has tried to play the piano, but has very little finger-work talent and is unable to play anything other then very basic songs without stumbling over the keys. For this reason, Timmy as a consumer seeks a product(tool) that like the piano can create music from his   written compositions. Timmy discovers  piano composition software and uses it to create digital compositions of his music.

 

Now Timmy is happy that he can translate his mental-skill sets into piano music without the mechanical instrument(piano) getting in the way thanks to his shortcomings in mechanical skill.

 

Timmy hears a pianist with amazing finger work and a sense for the keys getting higher praise then his digitally composed music. This angers Timmy and  Timmys new life goal becomes to stop the sale of the piano because he feels they put too much value on mechanical skill in order to create music and do not allow brilliant minds to flourish. 

 

 Meanwhile, Mr. Businessmansir sells a piano and piano  composition software to both consumers and collects more $$$

 

The end.  

 

Edited October 28, 2019 by SaltyKoalaBear

[S0UL FLAME 1,611]

Compelling

[Xzamplez 335]

What i came up with

 

Things like orientation/spacing/font/color are all open to change, but i like the asymmetry of the design myself.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Xzamplez

[no god anywhere 735]

Personally I think there should be some kind of logo that can stand on it's own and better if it can be incorporated into the wording aswell. The room for design creativity of a logo and the weight it offers to a brand is quite considerable and I think "Next Level Design" kinda speaks for itself here when deciding how far to go with it.

 

I've been playing with ideas in my head the last couple days. I'd say let people who are interested dabble with it for a while. I'm sure theres no need to rush.

[MultiLockOn 1,252]

@Xzamplez You listen to that new Kanye album yet

[Xzamplez 335]

3 hours ago, MultiLockOn said:

@Xzamplez You listen to that new Kanye album yet

I did. I’m very indifferent about it. Not unlistenable, but I don’t see myself going back to it.

 

What’d you think?

[MultiLockOn 1,252]

4 hours ago, Xzamplez said:

I did. I’m very indifferent about it. Not unlistenable, but I don’t see myself going back to it.

 

What’d you think?

Was pretty neutral the first listen. Second listen I liked it a lot. Now I love it. Would probably put it as his 2nd or 3rd best album, right under Yeezus.